by Espiritus on 26 September 2019 - 17:09
I was young, with a Dutch bred Bouvier back in the early 80's. He was wonderful and stolen. School, marriage, children and life intervened.
I now have a beautifully bred, intense 9-week old shepherd and enough time on my hands (and hopefully LEFT since I'm 65) that I thought I might go back to the field. Don't think I'll ever be a decoy though.
Thanks for all your help. Even the philosophical debates were educational.
by apple on 26 September 2019 - 18:09
One absolutely crucial pre-requisite is maturity. The dog has to show the helper that he is capable of dealing with this type of training. I rarely start defensive training in dogs under one year old, more often though I wait until they are quite a bit older.
Next, let me caution the readers about the territory we are about to enter. Defense drive is an important part of protection training, but it is the most dangerous aspect of it as well. By that I mean that it is dangerous for the dogs. Defense training done wrong can really ruin a dog. My philosophy is this: "It is never too late to do defense type work, but quite often it is done too early."
Let me discuss the principles which should be understood before actually getting into training techniques.
•Defense behavior appears in two forms; active defense (forward=aggression, biting) and passive defense (backwards=avoidance).
•Both forms are triggered by the same stimuli: threatening (physical or psychological), staring, and open aggression.
•Which of the two forms of defense the dog will show depends on several factors: confidence and maturity of aggressor vs. dog (age), environment (strange vs. familiar), self defense vs. prey- or brood- defense.
•The root cause for defense behavior (regardless of which form) is always concern or worry. The dog is either concerned that he might get hurt or worse, that he may lose rank, that he may lose his prey, or that harm comes to socially important individuals (puppies, mate, etc.), etc..
•"The goal the dog attempts to reach through his active defense is always the same -- avoidance behavior in the attacker." Raiser
In other words the dog wants the aggressor to stop doing what causes him (the dog) concern or worry. With those concepts in mind we can start to try and stimulate defensive "feelings" in the dog during protection training.
by emoryg on 26 September 2019 - 18:09
Apple, I have no other way to picture your dog but what you write of him. I may just have a different philosophy. For instance, I enjoy taking my dogs out in public. I especially like taking the male. I have owned him since twelve months and he is now over three. I like a certain type of male dog and to have tested him and observed the power and dominance he is capable of, instills confidence to see him interact with the family who walks up and wants to know what breed he is. He instills confidence every time we are in the hardware store and he cleans some kid’s face with puppy kisses.
I made a career out of training and working with this type dog, testing hundreds to isolate the ones who would be best suited for the needs of my department. Having helped trained many, many police dogs, I can say they are by far the easiest dog to train for police work. Not just for their ability to quickly subdue the suspect with their devastating power, but for their love of work in general, their desire to please, the look in their eye knowing you (not some bag of food or ball on a rope) are the center of their universe, the confidence to go to the schools, churches, civic events so strangers can walk up and take pictures, etc etc etc. It is not me that gives him the confidence. It is me who is the beneficiary of it. Sport line, show line, working line…doesn’t matter. I swear by them and will never accept anything less no matter how many dogs I have to test to find one.
You’re right, about the man-stopper. But just because they’re rare, doesn’t mean you have to settle for something less.
by apple on 26 September 2019 - 18:09
by Centurian on 26 September 2019 - 19:09
Apple ... what you write I say ... yes and no .... Just Depends !! You assume the dog in giving a warning pecieves a threat . yes and no . Some dogs the act of some one coming , yes they can feel uncomfortable and perhaps concerned , worried , all the way to threatned ... But.. not always. Like you wrote about your car. And ... I want to digress a moment to say : when Duke talks about possession , that trait is important !! Back to your car : possesion .. that is the pack's resource. Again Apple, I make a subtle difference which is : there is a difference when a dog is defensive in protecting itself from harm - this dog may feel uncomfortable , worried , plain out right threatened or fearful ... there lies a gradient here . This defense behavior is in opposition to a dog that is guarding , watching over , something other than itself. IMOp the thoughts , feeling , motivations of this dogthat is , for example guarding a resource , is entirely different. This is a different kind of defense,... the dog is projecting a difference in it's traits , temperament. This type of dog is not worried , just the opposite . The dog protecting your car may very well be saying " this is mine and I mean to keep it ! I will do what I need to do to keep it " !! In the example I gave about the helper puttig a hand to my face , my dog was not worried , not concerned , not threatened [ for himself that is ] but rather he was taking matters into his own hands and he aimed to control the context and the helper. As I wrote proactive behavior , not behavior about being worried. He wasn't worried , he was the one to cause someone to be worried.
Now I have to make another distinction . We have to take the maturity of the dog into consideration ... that is a critical factor discussing training and capabilities. Young dogs are different to talk about. Yes and no ... some kinds of aggression are not learned ... they are innate ... Valk references this kind of aggression I believe , when he talks about the border patrol dogs. I believe he stated many dogs lacking this would wash out ...
Once I had a 10 week pup , Fado Karthago son . My friend stooped to the ground , picked him up and did that foolish book explained temperament test to see if the dog was dominant. He put the pup down , the pup went 5 feet away from him then the pup immediately turned , ran and catapulted into his lap and almost bit his face.
This pup was not worried , not worried for itself either , and the pup aggressively gave my friend a piece of his mind after he let the pup down and he walked away .. I repeat AFTER he walked away [ so there was no threat to be pecieved, nor a nything to worry about ]. This dog was not worried , not concerned , not theatened and he responded to being picked up and cradled by a stranger by trying to bite him in the face . My point ,aggression can be innate in dogs and can have a very ingrained genetic basis - aggression doesn't always have to be trained , taught/learned .
To reitertate : paper and titles tell you very little about a dog... and for sure that pup of mine !
I think I was writing this as other posts were being made .. Anyway ..
BTW , Raiser is not entirely correct ... He writes much that is wonderful and true , but sometimes some apsects of his writing are not not enitrely the case . Doesn't matter if he wrote the book , which I read 25 years ago and still have ! When something is not entirely true then it is not always enitrely true no matter what we believe.
Ohhh no no no , Avoidancis not a form of passvie aggression !! . Avoidance is a form of fleeing , removing one's self from an uncomfortable , worrisome , situation . Passive aggression is a expression of aggression that is covert. A certain kind of stare at someone is passive aggresssion . When a dog cuts someone off with it's body as that person comes toward you , that is a form of passive aggersssion . A dog raising it's lips , snarling at you , that is passive aggression .. Going backwards is a distaning behavior just the opposite of a distancing sgnal whereby the goal is to send a message to another to " back off " .
by ValK on 26 September 2019 - 20:09
you have candidate to fit into my requirements?
"The dog should instill confidence in his handler, not the handler having to instill confidence in his dog."
very good and short remark to sum up.
yep, that's right - there practically wasn't age limitation for protection exercises, although serious pressure did begin typically at age 5-6 month.
in fact among rejects prevailed dogs with too high aggressive reactivness and weaker selfcontrol than ones with poor aggression and dominance.