Need ob advice.... - Page 3

melba , what I did with a male I trained , is using a ball that is small enough to close my hand far  enough so he cant see the ball, every now and then he could get a peek at it , but also I could leave it in my pocket

that could be a short cut for you now

however later  I shaped that dog into rewaring him out of my left pocket , he knows the ball is there and can come out any sec , 

but most important is that every dog is different and you have to see whitch triggers yours have 

Thank you Duke : )
The problem arises that I have very small hands and my boy has a really big head/mouth. I would be worried that he might swallow it accidentally.
If he thinks I have the ball on me, he will preform. I don't want him to think it's on me because when he knows it's not on me we have problems.

I did some more magic dog food bowl work yesterday :) all went well and aside from heeling ( I feel it gets mundane quickly) I added in the recall ( only short, about 6' away) next to the bowl/ball, sit, stand and down just to keep him on his toes. Nero didn't look at the ball and completed his excersises quickly.

Melissa

melba  .. i can't get the concept across ., i guess through people's head .. YES>> THAT"S  IT ..that's it !! you write " HE DID THE REST ON HIS OWN : ,, bingo that is it .. the communication , the relationship .. the dog performs because it is an integral part [ for one reason or another , one method or another ] of the relationship !! the dog wants to do beac use it is mutually beneficial to you both in life !!.. AND one further , if my dog miscues [ i did not say disobeys ] the dog will actually correct himself !! - that is training for Sch .. to the point the dog himself knows that he made a mistake and reconciles it !!  FOR the record , i have competed and  as I have described , these things i do with my dog .. even Sch training BTW .. another comment .. I always thought Sch people worrying about 1 point , 2 points is not just foolish .. but plain ol stupidity ..- sometimes i really wonder .. and with no offense to my very close  friends in USA and Germany that participate :       to value a dog , or a performance the dog is capable of , in one perfromance and descerning a point or two .. the day i regard my dog on a point or two over the relationship i have with any of my GSDs then IMO i better get out of  the canine bit !! BTW .. my mentors in USA and Germany over 20 years ago taught me Sch .. there were two things .. a leash , and a collar .. that's it . he got In Germany a perfect 300 score at that time and a standing ovation from every person that attended the Sch 3 trial !! thank you for passing your knowledge on to me .. i guess i was blessed truely from them ! so even nthough i understand , markers , toys .. and at times i ise a multitude of ways .. it's not complicated ..we make dog training SOOOOO complicated .. come on .. you dopn't need a PHd degree here folks !! as long as you have yourself .. and your dog .. what else do you need ??  you remind me of parents with kids that have to buy them all sorts of devices .. when all that you need is "..." ... please folks ...

So .. don .. you think .. by letting the dog figure things out , to position him to make the choice to better suit his needs ... IS COMPLUSION ?? please... i don't even use a collar or a leash in order to maunuever the dog into making the desired [ correct choice] .. and if the dog choses to do something . it becomes ovwer time , reliable ...  YOU KNOW : a dog will always repeat what is successful to him .. not only do i not use a collar and leash but most often .. i don't even utter a word [ hard to bleieve isn't it] !! -- so getting back to the post .. i think we look so much for methods / techniques / a specific way to solve a situation .. and this is my pet peeve] we lose all COMMON SENSE .. WHAT EVER happened to common sense ??? e.g - IF what you want is the dog to look at you in heeling ...  then 2 questions .. why does one even attempt to move with the dog if your dog can't take it's eyes off you stationary ... and why would you walk more than 1 step if you cannot get the dog glued to your face moving 1 step ?? forget techniques / or whateever  it takes .. there are numerous way to cultivate that ... AD NAUSEUM ... BEATING THE ISSUIE TO DEATH .. If you have a relationship with your dog , it looks to you , and within 1 step you and your dog will attend to each other [ however you do that- again variuos ways  ] .. believe me .. the dog will be more than happy to go 2 .. 3... 4... 5... 100. steps with focus/attention or whatever you call it .. .. and that should be irregardless if you always have [ or it thinks you have ] a ball , toy . food ..whether you hide it . show it .. who cares --  when there is no prompt / motivation / marker left ... and all that is left is yourself .. i hope that one's dog would perform with excellence .. BTW .. i have sen people with $500, 000.oo GSDS train with a collar and a leash .. and believe me .. they didn 't train with hard handed compulsion and have that dog loose heart and attitude before it even go in the Show ring..  a mouth can be worse than even using a leach /collar .. BTW .. my mentor used a collar and a leash .. he got a perfect 300 score in Germany at Sch 3  trial,  along with a standing ovation.. people don't want to believe the most important asset you have with your dog is your mind [ common sense] and your relationship .. that's  ok by me- not mynplace to cinvince and argue .. not m,y intention ..  .. as i wrote .. words to contemplate and just an opinion .. each decide for themselves ..but i will tell you .. if you don't have a relationship and you think  of only in terms of  technique .. that is how you will the rest of your life with your dog[s]. your choice .. AP

melba , this is that dog after put on the ball from left pocket , as you can see it also gives nice focus in sitposition


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw_FtOKSO5g

this wont work if your pocket is lower than the dogs head

Don,

I do not have a right to criticize anybody’s techniques – and I don’t (especially that I didn’t manage to title my girl). Different dogs respond differently. I just stated what worked for me (especially that Alphapup mentioned it). I do not know much about Sch training however I am really interested in educating myself and giving it a try with my new pup. Before I had my kids, I started AKC obedience and agility with my Suzi and she had big problems with focusing on me after 10-20 minutes, so people suggested ‘better treats’. Nothing worked until I stopped treats all together. There was nothing more frustrating to me than having a ‘perfect dog’ for 10 minutes and then ‘fighting with her’ for the next 20… I noticed one very important thing - my girl knows when we go into a ‘sport mode’ and when she may expect rewards. I use a different collar & leash combo on her – she knows it and she switches immediately to the ‘sport behavior’, gets excited and expects good treats. Sometimes I give her treats just because I am in a good mood. My ‘good mood’ creates perfect treats (i.e. baked beef liver cubes). Suzi knows it very well. I use a well charged ‘marker’ (word) so she understands when she performed well. I DO USE TREATS in training – but not as a sole reward. I am so happy with her, that my happiness produces the treat… I often smile when people in the dog park ask me to grab their dog because they run out of treats and the dog will not come to them…

For me, always the most important is how the dog behaves in a real world. I don’t call my dog to come when I leave the dog park – she sees me leaving and she follows. She still thinks for herself, but when we are together it’s easier for her just to look up to me. And that makes our lives so much easier…

OK

Another good thread, even with the branching out. I for one have always has dogs, and growing up even though at that time they were not service dogs they had to obey, mind and listen. They just couldn't do whatever they wanted when they wanted too. What do you call the dog that is "just there" can do what it wants whenever, where ever? And doesn't have a purpose or job? I'm not saying that that is a bad thing just that I have never had one of those. My dogs always had a purpose. Now even though I would love to have titled the GSDs in my life I never had time due to work, being in the military or the crazy shift work working as a LEO. I would've loved for someone else to title the dog(s), just never knew of someone or met someone that could have done that for me.  My 9 yr old M was being trained and groomed for a PSD. And when my department said no I had to do some serious thinking. A lot of time, effort and work was put into having that dog ready and then the department played politics or just plain ole dropped the ball. So, now in my eyes I have a dog that missed his calling. 

I have a service dog and my two Fs are being trained for explosive detection and even though I miss LE work I'm working with dogs as a civilian contractor. Would have loved the two, LE/PSD, to be as one. So my training is different then on the field. So I know very little in that aspect. 

I can honestly relate and believe or understand each person's training methods, techniques or styles. For me when I read APUP I think, (without knowing his bio, dogs or training methods that he is on a different level. I was going to say "deeper" but not sure if that is correct. I never train or have trained with treats.I am the master/the alpha and that is the only way I know.  Now I honestly can't say I would or wouldn't get better results if I did use treats? I get the results I want or need by the way I do things. My 9 yr old M has only broke my command two times in his life and both times were for "PREY" issues. I was strong on OB and he and I have a great relationship. He is as close to the perfect dog if not the perfect dog that I could ask for. But like others have stated and it should be a given; What works for one might not work for another, different handlers,trainers, Masters, different methods, techniques etc.

My dogs train differently and even though the methods could be different to obtain the same results one thing never changes...... NO TREATS. They need to do what I want due to/for me. Now there's times they can "just be dogs" or play together (3) or play individually with me AND then there are times to train or work. And they know which is which.     

Yes, great thread!

Alboe, Nero was also started as a PSD but that was not my intention when I bought him as a puppy. We've basically just been trying to find our niche, training wise. I didn't decide to take up Schutzhund for the competition/points aspect but for the doing something with my dog aspect. Right now I have the time for training and couldn't imagine sending him off to someone else to do what I should be doing.

I used the clicker and food for about a month to imprint the sit and down when he was an itty bitty puppy but have not used them since. Not with Nero.

BTW, training yesterday was awesome :) I had him heel most of the BH pattern away from the bowl with excellent results. I think he's really picking up the "game" and what I really want of him. His eyes are lighting up when he knows he's doing what he's supposed to be doing and in perfect position. Thank you for the suggestions again!

Melissa

Love when a plan comes together!