Shiloh Shepherds? - Page 8

sunsilver,

i did- i apologize-

so what is the going rate for a pup/adolescent- say if i wanted to buy one?

What is this combo bringing to the table on a consistant basis to make it a more efficient service dog than suitable gsd or lab? I mean you have a couple working candidates you have posted about. and thats great! not being facetious. but what truely seperates them and put them above the breeds already out there that would make them worthy of calling them a progressive breed that should be recognized? i mean if we arent progressing i dont see the point. i think progression is what seperates new breed from mutt and progressive breeder from dollar signs. so im looking to be convinced of why this dog is revolutionary or a sign of progression?????






My home if full with a 
working GSD, my ppd would go to hell and back for me,,
lab/gsd mix rescue,will track like nobodies business, foster that never left haha
czech/wg working line gsd, will work til he drops but turns off easily,PSA-trailing-retriever(anything i ask ie duck-beer)
and a mali/dutchy cross. and my mali well she is a malinut. beginning PSA- working on burnt wire detection- beginning tracking

So im not above mix breeds. I rather enjoy all of my dogs for there purposes. however mixing dogs on purpose should be done for a reason and i am still looking for what the intended traits that seperate shilohs from the rest of the dogs were or are supposed to be.
 

" I can name three Shiloh service dogs off the top of my head. And that's just people who post regularly on the Shiloh forum! I know there are others, and also an even larger number of Shiloh therapy dogs." good nice to hear

any dog who works is to be commended and that includes mutts. I can ,,with help of others,, name THOUSANDS of German shepherd dogs who work in service. any military shilohs?? doubt it. endurance is not there, agility is not there. maybe they are pretty, many dogs in the shelter are pretty. it does not make them a breed. it make them a pretty lovable mutt.
cr 2 funny

Okay, let's lay off this designer breed crap!

Here's a brief synopsis of what's in the Shiloh bloodline other than GSD.

The first outcross was Sabrina. She was an AKC registered GSD, but as Tina eventually figured out, five generations back, there had been an unintentional outcross to an unidentified dog, most likely a Sarplanaic. (No, Tina was NOT responsilbe for this 'oops' breeding.)

The next outcross was Secret Samson-Woo. Samson himself was a mix of giant malemute and GSD. He was only used a limited number of  times, to refresh the gene pool and bring in increased size and bone. Samson's bloodlines included several well-known GSDs such as the Littlest Hobo and Chico, a white GSD who had starred in numerous movies.
Obviously, at this point, Tina could no longer say she was breeding purebred GSDs, and the Shiloh became a separate breed.

The next two outcrosses were to Artus zum Sohrewald, a long haired GSD registered with the Altdeutscher Schaeferhund Verband, and Hoofprint Orbit, a white GSD from Hoofprint kennel here in Ontario.

There have been NO other outcrosses, unlike the 'sliver' breeders (the ones who have broken with the ISSR) who have made over 100 outcrosses to GSDs in the last few years, and STILL claim they are breeding Shilohs!


Now, what's the official definition of a DESIGNER dog?

A designer dog is a hybrid, created by breeding two purebred dogs together.

Did this happen ANYWHERE in the creation of the ISSR Shiloh? NO, IT DID NOT!

 

Sunsilver,
I have a legitimate question.....in using the out-cross "Secret Samson-Woo".....would he not be considered a "designer/hybrid" by your own definition of one??
Just curious....

GEEZE, you have to [accidentally] use a freaking SARPLANINAC to create a "real GSD"??? Did it never cross her mind (while she was crossing breeds) that she was getting way way far away from a GSD which, in theory, she was trying to replicate from her youth? I find this confusing.

but what truely seperates them and put them above the breeds already out there that would make them worthy of calling them a progressive breed that should be recognized?

For me it's 

1) structure: no roached backs, no overangulated, saggy rears.

2) Temperment: Tina has done her best to breed a family-friendly dog that can be trusted with the smallest child. (And we all know this was something that was lacking in the American GSD at the time.)

3) The genetic database and tracking of littermate information, to eliminate genetic problems such as dysplasia and EPI. Tina has 40 year's worth of records recorded on a computer database. How many breeders can claim that?

4) A support system. The ISSR people I've met and gotten to know are wonderful people. When my GSD developed prostate problems, I had someone offer to help pay for the very expensive tests he needed. I've lost count of the number of forum members who have been helped in one way or another by other forum members. The ISSR donated a Shiloh pup to a young man in the Netherlands who had cancer. Members donated money to cover the cost of eye surgery for a Shiloh service dog that had entropion of the eyelid. And when my puppy's mom was whelping her litter, Tina made herself available by phone to help out!  I only became a Shiloh owner last September, yet for three years before that, I was accepted on the forums, and even attended several ISSR events with my two GSDs. No one has EVER said a bad word to me about my dogs, or criticized me for not having a Shiloh!

....unlike another forum, where I was told my female GSD was a P.O.S.! 

  if I breed a GSD into my boxernoodlepoodle or yorkiemarmm I will be legitimate? can I have an official breed then? I worked on this 20+ years, my whole life. 

Uberland, My Shiloh is a rescue dog, but I know his history and everything about him. His owner died in a plane crash and my very good friend who talked my husband and I into adopting him, was friends with his owner. Tina Barber knows everything about my dog as well.  Well, I like my dog,but he is no mystical unicorn :). 

The best,
Char

 As for the remarks about the Shiloh being a mutt, every purebred dog was once a crossbreed or mix. Take the Boston Terrier for example. A cross between the early Bulldog and the Bull Terrier. The Bull Terrier = a cross between the early Bulldog and the now extinct English White Terrier. Or take the Boxer. Breeders aimed to produce a medium-sized security dog, so the crossed the Bulldog with the mastiff-type Bullenbeisser. For that matter, what about the Bulldog, The Olde English Bulldogge, the Victorian Bulldog, and the Alapaha Blue-blood Bulldog? You can come up with a number of  varieties of the same dog, but they are not the same dog and they are considered different breeds.

Regarding designer dogs, there are a number of dogs I don't care for, but I say to each their own. 

vom Marischal, there is probably Sarplainac in the GSD genome, as they are likely one of the herding dogs on which Max founded the breed. That was one of the reasons Tina decided to go ahead with the breeding. Sabrina brought a lot of problems into the bloodline, and  I'm failry sure if Tina had know that at the time, she wouldn't have done the breeding.

Robin, Samson's origins are one of those things no one knows but Tina, so I really can't answer your question. I can tell you that Tina was friends with Chuck Eisenmann, the Littlest Hobo's breeder and trainer, so that is likely one reason why she wanted to outcross to this particular dog, as he had the Hobo dogs in his ancestry. She wanted the malemute blood to increase size and bone, which was lacking in the (mostly) American line Shepherds she'd been using up until then.

Also, a true 'designer dog' breeder would have continued to use the outcross with EVERY breeding, and made up some cutesy name like 'shepalute' to describe the cross!  NO attention would have been paid to trying to set 'type' ...we all know such an outcross does not breed true, and even with the first generation, there will be a wide range of types in the litter, with some pups favouring the mother in appearance and some the father.

How do you set type with a breed when you have other breeders breeding your dogs?  You have them travel to New Zion for the litter evaluation. If the distance is too far, the LER is videotaped so Tina can review it.

No puppy LER, NO registration papers!

 "Tina has 40 year's worth of records recorded on a computer database. How many breeders can claim that?"

I can claim that with all my designer breeds!!!!!