Calm bites on the sleeve? - Page 5

My 2 cents:

Wild canines (and domesticated dogs) are hardwired for survival sequences when biting.

When hunting, when a canine grips a larger or dangerous prey item (lets say wolf on elk) the animal will take an initial grip.  If the elk turns to fight the predator has three choices at that point:

1) drop the bite and retreat out of the way of deadly horns
2) Shake HARD with the bite it has in order to cause severe trauma/pain which will cause the prey animal to stop its assault
3) drop the bite and regrip, almost always higher up on the animal

I have studied human bites/fatalities for some years, and through this research (interviews with victims of severe maulings, primarily)  I have found that severe dog attacks almost always follow the same pattern outlined above, which is similar to predatory behavior.  It is EXTREMELY rare for a dog to kill someone when it is in a defensive drive, as the dog's goal is to REPEL the person.  The same thing with "normal" dominance,where the dog will stop the attack if the person is submissive.

It makes sense that a good, strong nerved dog working in what I call "real prey" (not PLAY) would, when driven hard by the decoy, NOT just "lay" on the sleeve with a dreamy look in its eye.  This would be the same as the wolf remaining calmly on the elk's leg while the horns come bearing down on it.  Understanding that prey CAN KILL YOU by fighting back, the animal will either retreat, shake in order to traumatize the prey or regrip.  We teach our dogs not to regrip (most of us) primarily for safety reasons.  

With training, a dog can learn that the drive is just a routine which ultimately offers the animal no real harm.  So, they can "sleep" through the drive. But I don't feel a STRONG prey dog should be pointed off for a natural reaction ment to subdue the prey.

WHOLE 'nother picture with defense dogs.  And this is also not to say that growling and thrashing the sleeve is NOT a sign of weakness in some dogs, or a sign of a newbie dog feeling a bit pressured.  I just wanted to mention that the so called "terrier" shake is a NATURAL behavior for all canines.  It is associated with terriers, because these small dogs are often set upon rats, weasels and other animals which, unless shaken quickly and hard, can whip around and deliver horrific bites.  The terrier was bred to kill rats (basically) and quickly, so preference was given to the animal which did NOT retreat, nor rebite, but quickly caused max trauma to the rodent and was then able to move onto the next victim.

Great discussion guys!

 Sam, I read the article twice put didn´t really find any answears, maybe I´m missing something. What I wonder is if those dogs that just holds the bite on a competition has been taught to have this bitingstyle or if it´s just their natural way of biting, if it´s more a question of genetics, is it really a good idea to pay those dogs with higher points and have it as a criteria for judging if that is the case? The article from winkler said that dogs with high drives tend to shake easier OR  some insecure dogs. I understand that a more emotional dog that takes the work a bit more serious tends to shake more, on the other hand isn´t those dog judges would promote instead of the very calm and robotic ones, at least if we should breed for dogs that have other jobs than just SCH. I guess the ideal dog is the one with full hard grips but who also have some fire in his work, but paying to much focus on calm perfect grips in favour for a dog that has great drives and courage but may sometimes bite 75% full seems not a good way to go either,or?

Yeah, I hear you. If you or I were a judge, we'd score things a little differently than others. That's the thing with the sport. All of the judges are different and good judges tell you what they want to see and why. After being in the sport for a while you know what the judges are like, who is more generous in each phase and who is a stickler. Judges should be able to tell why a dog is reacting the way he is. Like you just stated, it could be from extreme drive OR a weak dog. The judge should be able to determine which is which and score accordingly. It is all a matter of opinion whether a judge likes the dog to go for a ride or counter. Back in the day, judging was very different. Nowadays it is a very competitive sport and a point or two will kill you. Focus in obedience wasn't there back in the day. The dog did the routine very lack luster, but did every exercise. Back then it was the norm. Now the dog has to be staring the handler in the eyes the whole routine except for parts of the retrieves and send out. One jackass came on to the field and set a benchmark for the future! ;) I'd have to go read the article, but I thought it explained it pretty well from my recollection.

Aggression can be brought out by standing there eyeballing the dog or running as fast as you
can away from the dog.

Question is, is there enough aggression to sustain the dog in a fight with it's prey or
it's adversary who has challenged him.

With  civil drive or Zone, your dog has established at which point
it  will back away from the fight or quit.

Raising the aggression can happen in seconds, and will be the potential to
carry on the fight.  Seeing these things as a trainer allows you to control the
aggression, and the outcome for the dog to be successful.

Der Schutzhund,

Trigger stimulus...........           Understand that this book was meant to give a layman a view
to which he could start a good foundation on his dog. However in terms of classical
behavior psychology, it is left with many holes that need to be filled.

For $20.00 you still get a lot of bang for your buck.

There are two parts to a trigger, one is the antecedent's that precede the trigger.
And the the other is the level of confidence at the time the trigger stimulus occurs.

I would point out that the antecedents are as important as the level of confidence
your dog has. Because you must balance the two to be successful in training your
dog to follow through and not back away from the task you have given him.