can/could the pittbull handle military work... - Page 5

I'Boldog Dirk, SchH III, FR Brevet, etc, at 4.5 weeks of age



I'd like to add that it is one of many myths concerning the pit bull that their jaw "pressure" is higher than any other breed. There has only ever been one study done (believe me, I know this stuff, I work with Karen Delise)  and some of you may have seen it. It can hardly be called a "study" as very few dogs were used. But Nat Geo did some bite pressure work with trained dogs, and I believe the pit bull they used came in under the GSD.  I was a decoy for many, many years trials and training, and I can tell you that the MUCH smaller mouth of a pit bull does not have the crushing power of say, an Akita or Rott.  The three dogs with the hardest bites I have experienced in 40 years were a presa, a GSD and a rott.

Having said that, how HARD a dog bites can often depend on the drive.  The three hardest biting dogs mentioned above were all dogs working in high defense. Their biting could best be described as "fear biting" if you REALLY want to split hairs.  They looked and acted just like *everybody* wants, but their motivation was to REPELL the decoy.  Training had taught them tohang on.

Studies have shown that police K9 do much less damage to people than "streeet bites" for the simple reason *most* police dogs are familiar with biting and are not in "repel" mode.  So the bite is not as nasty.

My pit bulls are not stressed when doing bitework; its a game. This goes back to the pit bulls I mentioned above that can relax enough during a dog fight to lie on the bottomand take punishment while resting themselves.  Just a geneticall different mindset.  

The other major factor is that the amazingthinigs that pit bulls do with their mouths (hanging from ropes for a hour, etc) come from the inbred desire to hold - because natural selection knocked out those who nipped or released when hurt. A pit bullhangs on because he wants to hang on, not because their jaws are somehow different. They aren't.  Most are about the size of a springer spaniel, with a bit more jaw bone for muscle attachment.  But, boy, they DO love to hang!Boldog Dread, SchH III, IPO III, TD, U-CDX, CD, STD-ducks/sheep, etc, and Boldog Brittania, SchH I, U-CD, etc.  Below, Boldog Erin Fay again. Have to say, I've NEVER seen a GSD do this...

Some random thoughts after reading this thread.

If people want to use a generic "pits" category that includes APBT, AST, SBTs and any other "pitty" type breed, then I don't think you can say only the good working GSD can be used for comparison.  For one thing, the APBT, AST and SBT aren't even the same breeds.  If you want to include ALL APBT for comparison purposes, including the BYB stuff, then you have to include ALL GSD for comparison, including the BYB and show bred stuff.

There hasn't been an FRIII APBT in the US, so one hasn't won the Championships.  Leri did win the Western Zone Regional Championships in FRI with her female APBT Cassie last year though, and has other HIT wins to her credit.

I've known multiple APBT or APBT mixes who were military, police and border patrol dogs.  In every case where I personally knew the handlers, they did not tell the general public the dogs were APBT for political reasons.  The dogs were Lab mixes, Malinois mixes, etc.  depending on what color they were.  All admitted privately the dogs were APBT or APBT mixes, but didn't want to deal with the public perception.  One of these dogs was featured a few years ago on a military dog TV show, I can't remember the name but they followed some dogs through the training and then the dog was stationed at Camp Pendleton.  That one was a mix, I don't remember if they admitted it was an APBT mix on the show, but they didn't freely admit it once it was at the final post.  This IMO is one of the biggest reasons APBT aren't considered for this work.   I also agree that the potential for high levels of dog aggression is a major turn off for this type of work.  Many military and police dog handlers are better soldiers/cops then they are dog handlers.  Giving them a fairly straight forward GSD is one thing, adding in the level of difficulty dealing with high dog aggression wouldn't be a good idea.

Public perception is also one reason you don't see many serious competitors working them.  One of these days I'd love to have another one (although I'm not sure I'd consider myself a serious competitor :-) ), but for now it's not worth the risk, I'm not even sure I can get homeowners insurance if I have another one.  I know my current company would drop me.  And in todays litigaous society, especially living in Southern CA, it's just not worth dealing with the headaches training a APBT in bitework could potentially cause.  Not now.

It's my personal belief that a good APBT is every bit as intelligent, athletic, etc as a good GSD, even more so in some areas.  I won't state this is a FACT, because I don't think anyone can state their own personal opinion, based on a small subset of an overall population, as fact.   But it is my opinion, based on the many APBT I've owned/observed/worked with over the years and the GSD I've observed/worked with.

One thing I will say about the APBT.   If someone challenged me to pull out the local newspaper, and using only the ads in the paper, more specifically the obvious BYB ads, they wanted me to go see how many solid working prospects I could find, I'd be pretty confident in saying I'd find more working prospects in the BYB APBT litters then the BYB GSD litters.  I'm not sure why, but I've looked at many BYB APBT litters over the years, and consistently found pups with good drives, grips, and temperaments. 

I agree with Dianne, I don't think the APBT is the best choice for military and police work, for a variety of reasons, many which she stated quite well.  But the original question was CAN they do it, and I think the answer is yes, they could.

No, Pit Bulls are not the best for police work, or else they would be used commonly.  I'm sure some of them could do it, and I've seen some awesome APBTS, but are they as good for this purpose as a GSD, no.  They are not even a guardian breed, the history includes dogfighting and large game gripping.  They do not think as clearly as a GSD, they are prey-monsters, and when they are in drive they don't always think as clearly.  I've seen more people with problems outing their Pits than with other breeds.  I have also seen Pits that, when they are in drive, very easily re-direct their aggression to their handler.  The Pit people claim they have no human aggression in the breed, and they cite the example and show old paintings and say "The handlers were inside the fighting ring with the dogs, they did not turn on their handlers," well, if this is true, why do so many people report that when they tried to break up a dog fight between Pits they got attacked (re-directed aggression)?  Even dogs that had previously shown no HA, they have bitten their owners over a dog fight.

Some are very good working dogs, civil, clear headed, but most of them are not civil.  They will bite a sleeve, of course, they love to tug, bite, prey games.  But can they excell like a GSD at patrol, all-weather distance tracking, and searching, maybe not.  Another thing is they cannot take the cold weather as well, nor can Dobermans.  They are intelligent trainable dogs, but not as intelligent as the GSD.  Some Pits have the problem of "turning on" and then the handler can not "turn them off", this tenacity is exhibited in the dogfighting ring, the ability to turn on, then never give up.  Some Pits in their bloodline have dog-aggression.  None of this is to mean all Pits, but some.  Some of the same reasons not all PD's use Malinois, too much prey drive not enough defense or civil drive.

I would also like to add that the correct temperament of the APBT is not aggressive, and once again, they are not a guardian breed like a Dobe, GSD, or Rott.  Most Pits are friendly, not aloof or loyal like the GSD, they make friends easily.

As to the person who said they were not athletic, that is wrong, the true Pits are one of the most athletic breeds ever, how do you think they were used for dog fighting.  BUT, and this is a big but, the American Bully lines are not.  Think of the Pits you see that are huge, oversized, big heads, they get tired easily.  It's just like Rotts, they have no long-term endurance.  The true Pit is not like that, they are 45-60 pounds of muscle, not 85.

Compared to many of the common GSDs you see that have bad hips or funny structure, a randomly-bred Pit would be much more athletic if I had to bet my money on an agility test
Even when it comes to show dogs,
What looks more athlethic:
THIS 

OR THIS



That's a photo found on Caragan's website

I'm surprised no one mentioned this:

The Most Decorated American War Dog of all time was a PITBULL!

His name was Sgt Stubby, he was from CT, and went on to be the mosst decorated canine hero. Pitbulls because known for a brief stint as the "all-American breed."

While training for combat on the fields of Yale University in 1917, Private J. Robert Conroy found a brindle puppy with a short tail. He named him "Stubby", and soon the dog became the mascot of the 102nd Infantry, 26th Yankee Division. He learned the bugle calls, the drills, and even a modified dog salute as he put his right paw on his right eyebrow when a salute was executed by his fellow soldiers.

Stubby had a positive effect on morale, and was allowed to remain in the camp, even though animals were forbidden. When the division shipped out for France aboard the SS Minnesota, Private Conroy smuggled Stubby aboard. Hidden in the coal bin until the ship was far at sea, Stubby was brought out on deck where the sailors were soon won over by the canine soldier.

Stubby was once again smuggled off the ship and was soon discovered by Pvt. Conroy's commanding officer. The CO allowed Stubby to remain after Stubby gave him a salute.

When the Yankee Division headed for the front lines in France, Stubby was given special orders allowing him to accompany the Division to the front lines as their official mascot. The 102nd Infantry reached the front lines on the 5 February 1918. Stubby soon became accustomed to the loud rifles and heavy artillery fire.

His first battle injury occurred from gas exposure; he was taken to a nearby field hospital and nursed back to health. The injury left him sensitive to the tiniest trace of gas. When the Division was attacked in an early morning gas launch, most of the troops were asleep. Stubby recognized the gas and ran through the trench barking and biting at the soldiers, rousing them to sound the gas alarm, saving many from injury.

Stubby also had a talent for locating wounded men between the trenches of the opposing armies; he would listen for the sound of English and then go to the location, barking until paramedics arrived or leading the lost soldiers back to the safety of the trenches. He even caught a German soldier mapping out the layout of the Allied trenches. The soldier called to Stubby, but he put his ears back and began to bark.

As the German ran, Stubby bit him on the legs, causing the soldier to trip and fall. He continued to attack the man until the United States soldiers arrived.

For capturing an enemy spy, Stubby was put in for a promotion to the rank of Sergeant by the commander of the 102nd Infantry.

He became the first dog to be given rank in the United States Armed Forces.

Later, Stubby was injured during a grenade attack, receiving a large amount of shrapnel in his chest and leg. He was rushed to a field hospital and later transferred to a Red Cross Recovery Hospital for additional surgery. When Stubby became well enough to move around at the hospital, he visited wounded soldiers, boosting their morale.

By the end of the war, Stubby had served in 17 battles. He led the American troops in a pass and review parade and later visited with President Woodrow Wilson. He visited the White House twice and met Presidents Harding and Coolidge. Stubby was awarded many medals for his heroism, including a medal from the Humane Society which was presented by General John Pershing, the Commanding General of the United States Armies.

He was awarded a membership in the American Legion and the Y.M.C.A. When his master, J. Robert Conroy, began studying law at Georgetown University, Stubby became the mascot of the Georgetown Hoyas.

He died in 1926.

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