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by Prager on 28 August 2010 - 19:08

If the stick hurts it teaches and tests the dog how he/she to deal with the pain. Pressure of a decoy is one thing and pain is another.
Police dog or PPD or security dog ( or even hunting, S&R and family dog) will encounter a pain. Thus it is imperative to know how such dog will response to pain. And if he is not bred and train to deal with it then the dog may fail in real life scenario. Then we produce bunch of sissified dogs who will snap on a child when it pulls on dogs hair. Or police dog running when someone steps on his foot.
Do you ever hear anybody conducting a pain response test on pups? No . I am sure. 99.99% of people have not even heard of it. And many are now appalled by reading my words here. Even so the test is totally harmless.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by yoshy on 28 August 2010 - 19:08

Hans,

Would you consider the stick hits in PSA to be adequate? I mean its not uncommon to bust slivers of bamboo during a drive. I agree thats its still a lot of prey that can take it as you said. but only referring too your statement on inflicting a little pain with the stick hits and is it comparable?

by duke1965 on 28 August 2010 - 19:08

but I think you can filter those out even before you come to the stichit in training , and there also can be hard dogs that cannot take the physical pressure , so it has to be good on both ends

by sueincc on 28 August 2010 - 20:08

I remember the days of the old bamboo and I also remember good dogs didn't have a problem with it either.

by Prager on 28 August 2010 - 22:08

This is a really touchy topic. But the answer to Yoshi is no.
There is no comparison in any sport now,...that is as far as I know. Go ahead and hit your self , or better yet let someone else hit you with the bamboo twig hard on palm of the hand or leg and you will get your answer.
I remember back then 99% of dogs had no problem with that. I doubt that that would be the number now.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by Prager on 28 August 2010 - 23:08

You see, everybody runs like as if you would through a stone in a flock of sparrows. This is toxic topic. Everybody talks about old style tough dogs. But they are even afraid to ask what is the harmless pain test in pups which I have mentioned above. This is a great topic. The old style dogs were able to dish it and take it. That is truly hard dog.
Funny how the people are schizophrenic. ...
Prager Hans

by Jenni78 on 29 August 2010 - 00:08

Go ahead and call in the AR activists; I'm guilty of what Hans is talking about. How do you know anything about a dog if you don't know how it will react under TRUE pressure and/or pain? I have allowed my dog to be put under high pressure in testing/training scenarios. Hits have not been pretend, and decoy has done more than dance with the dog and encourage him to bite full and calm. I know better than to go into the lengths of exactly what he has endured on an internet forum, but suffice to say the dog will not be run off, LMAO. He has been pushed and pushed just to see the point where he would back down or quit. We haven't found it. He seems to enjoy it, in a way.

Pain and pressure merely work him up more and make him angry, and when he's angry, he fights. The harder someone is on him, the harder he fights back and even takes it up a notch higher. He's not a flashy dog really, nor is he a dog who looks for a fight at all; in fact, he doesn't ever look for an excuse to attack a person or animal, but if either chooses to start something with him, he will take them up on it. He will react quickly to a real threat, but he is stable and sane and I trust him implicitly, BECAUSE I have seen his true character through REAL pain and pressure. I don't see any PC way around it; that's what it takes to know a real dog from a sleeve sucker and as long as everyone is too scared to do it, we'll keep churning out these flashly but weak excuses for GSDs.

Ok, going to check my couch cushions for bail money now.

Sorry to kind of drift off topic; my post is more in relation to Hans' posts than Diane's original question.

by Prager on 29 August 2010 - 00:08

Jenni 78
When I have read your post my smile was getting wider and wider.
You have a great dog. There are dogs which fight and at certain point flight. And then there are dogs which will not flight....... EVER.
They are rare comodity.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by Prager on 29 August 2010 - 01:08

Also let me ad. You said he seems to enjoy it, and he does. He is getting high on an adremnaline. Just like a mountain climber without equipment.
Maybe that should be illegal too...?
(Not)
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

by Jenni78 on 29 August 2010 - 01:08

Hans, he goes back to a few dogs you have previously mentioned as particularly strong dogs. He has old lines for a dog his age. I know he's a rare commodity; I only wish I'd realized this when he was much younger. I was too new to know what I had and I never did him justice.

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