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by johan77 on 07 August 2010 - 16:08
Thank you max, the way you explained is how I thought about it also. If the dog I was thinking about hadn´t get such a bad initial grip at the couragetest I wouldn´t hesitate to call that a nice dog, but as I said it could also be a bad grip due to the speed and impact.
I haven´t have a GSD for a while and never trained protectionsports back then, however it sparked my intresst and I have been on many championships and clubtrials for police and civilan dogs here in sweden. However, when you don´t have the practical knowledge only theory it´s hard to know every detail what goes on when training a protectiondog, especially when even the experts sometimes have different opinions. For example some say if a dog leaves the blind and runs to the handler it is "weak" even if we don´t know why this happen always I assume and what goes on in the dogs mind, some say the bite is very important while others say there is a lot more to a dog than a full calm grip. What I´m intressted in how much of what we see in competition is caused by training and how much is the natural dog.
To my knowledge only SCH/IPO wants a calm full grip where the dog holds still, belgium ringsport for example wants also a great grip but you often see the dogs there that shakes while on the bite, is this something that is trained away for in SCH, do most top competitiors learn their dog to avoid fighting/shaking on the grip and instead tries to get the dog to only hold hard and firm? And exactly how do they learn their dogs to resist the shaking, do they correct fif the dog starts shaking the sleeve or what?
I haven´t have a GSD for a while and never trained protectionsports back then, however it sparked my intresst and I have been on many championships and clubtrials for police and civilan dogs here in sweden. However, when you don´t have the practical knowledge only theory it´s hard to know every detail what goes on when training a protectiondog, especially when even the experts sometimes have different opinions. For example some say if a dog leaves the blind and runs to the handler it is "weak" even if we don´t know why this happen always I assume and what goes on in the dogs mind, some say the bite is very important while others say there is a lot more to a dog than a full calm grip. What I´m intressted in how much of what we see in competition is caused by training and how much is the natural dog.
To my knowledge only SCH/IPO wants a calm full grip where the dog holds still, belgium ringsport for example wants also a great grip but you often see the dogs there that shakes while on the bite, is this something that is trained away for in SCH, do most top competitiors learn their dog to avoid fighting/shaking on the grip and instead tries to get the dog to only hold hard and firm? And exactly how do they learn their dogs to resist the shaking, do they correct fif the dog starts shaking the sleeve or what?
by Sam Spade on 07 August 2010 - 17:08
Well I guess Max and I will always disagree on what civil actually means.
If you want to learn about "countering" google sch articles and read. There is a good old article by Armin on www.schutzhundvillage.com titled, prey promotion part II.
Civil is not a Drive or a "zone".
There are many good articles on sport training on the web. Just google schutzhund articles and there will be more than you can read. Armin has a lot of good articles on the site I gave you.
Max, I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I said I was probably wrong. You have got to have the worst reading comprehension of anyone on here.
by johan77 on 07 August 2010 - 17:08
I guess I was looking for a fast answear;)
I remember reading I think Dr rasier view on this, but there the goal was to reward the dog when he shakes /countering by slipping the sleeve, and that some dogs just pull back and if so you can reward that too if In remeber right. Is it generally so that dogs with more drive have a tendencey to shake while calmer dogs with somehow less drive tends to just bite down and pull, hence we see this at competitions in those dog that bites full and calm and out without any shaking, and do the judges reward these dogs more as long as the grip is deep? It seems a grip that is only half or 3/4 in some phases in c-work cost the dog at least around 5 points, even if the total picture and atitude of the dog is just as strong or even stronger than the dogs that get more points I guess based on they have a more perfect grip and out a tiny bit faster.
What baffles me is that sometimes you hear in SCH-circles that a dog that shake are "stressed" and maybe even more so if there are some growls, but if that the case most mals in ringsport/KNPV are stressed.
I remember reading I think Dr rasier view on this, but there the goal was to reward the dog when he shakes /countering by slipping the sleeve, and that some dogs just pull back and if so you can reward that too if In remeber right. Is it generally so that dogs with more drive have a tendencey to shake while calmer dogs with somehow less drive tends to just bite down and pull, hence we see this at competitions in those dog that bites full and calm and out without any shaking, and do the judges reward these dogs more as long as the grip is deep? It seems a grip that is only half or 3/4 in some phases in c-work cost the dog at least around 5 points, even if the total picture and atitude of the dog is just as strong or even stronger than the dogs that get more points I guess based on they have a more perfect grip and out a tiny bit faster.
What baffles me is that sometimes you hear in SCH-circles that a dog that shake are "stressed" and maybe even more so if there are some growls, but if that the case most mals in ringsport/KNPV are stressed.
by vhleigbiter on 07 August 2010 - 18:08
It's not stress if it's a prey behavior. Prey = catching something and vanquishing it. Shaking in many cases is just prey.
by MAINLYMAX on 07 August 2010 - 18:08
Johan,
You did the right thing, you started asking questions,
Sam is right I do not share the popular definition of Civil drive.
Mine is much more esoteric. I believe the civil drive to be the key stone
of the working dog, while most people relegate to a small part of the dogs
defence or prey drive. Some say it is the degree of aggression.
The Lord had 12 Apostles and only one had the right answer, even after
all their eyes have seen.
If you see the civil drive as your dogs working zone, everything changes and
all things become new. You are looking at it's breeding, training, and everything
that is in his environment holistically. As the the dogs working zone.
Ivar Lovaas just passed away. I work with him In Camarillo Ca. Mostly with
applied Behavior analysis. From there I stated working dogs in the 70's.
I simply define the dogs potential for protection work as civil drive. Since
then it's has been misinterpreted to mean everything but what it is.
You did the right thing, you started asking questions,
Sam is right I do not share the popular definition of Civil drive.
Mine is much more esoteric. I believe the civil drive to be the key stone
of the working dog, while most people relegate to a small part of the dogs
defence or prey drive. Some say it is the degree of aggression.
The Lord had 12 Apostles and only one had the right answer, even after
all their eyes have seen.
If you see the civil drive as your dogs working zone, everything changes and
all things become new. You are looking at it's breeding, training, and everything
that is in his environment holistically. As the the dogs working zone.
Ivar Lovaas just passed away. I work with him In Camarillo Ca. Mostly with
applied Behavior analysis. From there I stated working dogs in the 70's.
I simply define the dogs potential for protection work as civil drive. Since
then it's has been misinterpreted to mean everything but what it is.
by Sam Spade on 07 August 2010 - 18:08
Johan, like I said, go to www.schutzhundvillage.com and read "Prey Promotion Part II". It talks about exactly what you are asking and it talks about H.R.'S take.
Max, you constantly talk about how long and who you train with, but that doesn't impress me. Training in the 70's sucked and you should move on.
by MAINLYMAX on 07 August 2010 - 19:08
Sam,
I did very well in the 90's and early 2000. As far as civil drive
is concerned,, its like the theory of relativity in the dog world.
It was 15 years after the theory of relativity was written, that it
was accepted as fact.
Johan,.... a very good Swedish Movie .... The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
Rapage... was very good.
I did very well in the 90's and early 2000. As far as civil drive
is concerned,, its like the theory of relativity in the dog world.
It was 15 years after the theory of relativity was written, that it
was accepted as fact.
Johan,.... a very good Swedish Movie .... The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
Rapage... was very good.
by Sam Spade on 07 August 2010 - 20:08
Nobody is denying the concept of a civil dog or civil agitation. What I disagree with is the fact that you think it is a drive or a zone. It is neither a drive or a zone.
by MVF on 07 August 2010 - 20:08
Jim - I didn't say or mean to say that all dogs will switch tactics. Some have been bred to stick with one type of grip and are inclined to stick with it even when it puts them in danger. A working dog with a human, armed partner can be effective this way, but, for example, a dog or wolf in the wild would be better off if he was more versatile. (Selective pressures reduce the genes for single types of bites.) GSDs have had to be bred against evolution, sticking stubbornly to one type of grip -- and counting on his human partner to get there in time. I completely corroborate your experience with your dogs -- with both my academic and experiential knowledge.
by Slamdunc on 07 August 2010 - 21:08
MVF,
Some have been bred to stick with one type of grip and are inclined to stick with it even when it puts them in danger.
Those are the good dogs! Those are the dogs I select for police work.
A working dog with a human, armed partner can be effective this way, but, for example, a dog or wolf in the wild would be better off if he was more versatile. (Selective pressures reduce the genes for single types of bites.) GSDs have had to be bred against evolution, sticking stubbornly to one type of grip -- and counting on his human partner to get there in time
We are talking about dogs in sport or work, not wolves. Totally different animals and selection by breeding by man and in the wild are totally different things. A wolf would make a poor police dog or a poor personal protection dog. Wolves do not want to engage a stronger opponent. Natural selection avoids those animals in the breeding stock. Wolves normally will not engage a man especially when alone and the man is not afraid and willing to fight. A good dog will.
I disagree with your statement of different types of bites. Wolves will bite full and hard to take down prey, bites may become less full or more shallow in a fight with another wolf. This is because of the mind set, and why I said earlier you can look directly into the animals mind through the bite. If in a real fight with serious pressure the bite may lessened because of nerves and insecurity.
Our K-9's will engage the same way when the handler is present or when he is completely out of sight. The dogs are trained to engage with out the handler and fight and hold till the handler gets there. The dogs are trained to bite anything they can get and too stay in the fight on their own. The dogs are trained to not count on us getting there, they must work on their own till we get there. If the dog leaves the fight he is not a suitable Police K-9 and needs to be placed in a pet home.
The dogs are trained to believe that they can win every encounter they have. The dogs have no way to comprehend that a subject is armed with a gun or knife and have no idea that they may be shot or stabbed on a deployment. They simply do not know the potential consequences that may arise from engaging a bad guy. Just as many police officers do not know what they are dealing with on a traffic stop. I do know when I set out to track an armed robbery suspect that I may get shot or shot at, my dog just thinks it another bad guy that he is leading me too. A fleeing suspect to my dog is prey, tracking a bad guy to my dog is prey. Working in prey brings speed, once the suspect is apprehended the dog switches to defense and the desire to fight and win kicks in. I may be wrong but it seems that you anthropormorphize the dog and what it is actually doing, thinking and why it is doing it.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
Some have been bred to stick with one type of grip and are inclined to stick with it even when it puts them in danger.
Those are the good dogs! Those are the dogs I select for police work.
A working dog with a human, armed partner can be effective this way, but, for example, a dog or wolf in the wild would be better off if he was more versatile. (Selective pressures reduce the genes for single types of bites.) GSDs have had to be bred against evolution, sticking stubbornly to one type of grip -- and counting on his human partner to get there in time
We are talking about dogs in sport or work, not wolves. Totally different animals and selection by breeding by man and in the wild are totally different things. A wolf would make a poor police dog or a poor personal protection dog. Wolves do not want to engage a stronger opponent. Natural selection avoids those animals in the breeding stock. Wolves normally will not engage a man especially when alone and the man is not afraid and willing to fight. A good dog will.
I disagree with your statement of different types of bites. Wolves will bite full and hard to take down prey, bites may become less full or more shallow in a fight with another wolf. This is because of the mind set, and why I said earlier you can look directly into the animals mind through the bite. If in a real fight with serious pressure the bite may lessened because of nerves and insecurity.
Our K-9's will engage the same way when the handler is present or when he is completely out of sight. The dogs are trained to engage with out the handler and fight and hold till the handler gets there. The dogs are trained to bite anything they can get and too stay in the fight on their own. The dogs are trained to not count on us getting there, they must work on their own till we get there. If the dog leaves the fight he is not a suitable Police K-9 and needs to be placed in a pet home.
The dogs are trained to believe that they can win every encounter they have. The dogs have no way to comprehend that a subject is armed with a gun or knife and have no idea that they may be shot or stabbed on a deployment. They simply do not know the potential consequences that may arise from engaging a bad guy. Just as many police officers do not know what they are dealing with on a traffic stop. I do know when I set out to track an armed robbery suspect that I may get shot or shot at, my dog just thinks it another bad guy that he is leading me too. A fleeing suspect to my dog is prey, tracking a bad guy to my dog is prey. Working in prey brings speed, once the suspect is apprehended the dog switches to defense and the desire to fight and win kicks in. I may be wrong but it seems that you anthropormorphize the dog and what it is actually doing, thinking and why it is doing it.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
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