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Tina is very careful about temperment. Her dogs are softer than GSDs, and a small percentage are fearful, especially as pups. Most outgrow it, though. All dogs used for breeding MUST pass a temperment test, which is the same as the AKC test, and includes people opening umbrellas, suddenly appearing from hiding, and a cap pistol being fired.  I watched dogs being temperment tested at Homecoming one year, and all the ones I saw being tested passed.

I have NEVER heard of one of Tina's dogs biting someone. There was an incident someone posted on the forum a few days ago which describes how an ISSR Shiloh usually reacts to uninvited strangers.  The lawn maintenance guy showed up unannounced to mow the lawn. The owner's three Shilohs were out in the yard. The youngest one (8 months) cornered him as he sat ontop of the riding mower. When the owner came to rescue him, he was standing on the seat, with his cell phone to his ear. The dog was a grey sable: he THOUGHT it was a wolf!, and he was about to pee his pants from fear.  It didn't try to bite, it just stared at him menacingly. When the owner called, it came immediately, and did a perfect sit in front of her.

However, dogs biting people seems to happen frequently with the non-ISSR breeders, as they are just in it for the money, and don't care about selecting for good temperment. Many of their dogs are also inbred, with COI's of  40 or 50 %!  Too much inbreeding produces a higher percentage of genetic problems (SAS, EPI), funky tails and unstable temperments.

Since I had never heard of an ISSR Shiloh biting someone, I recently asked Tina why so many of the non-ISSR dogs seemed to be biters. She replied that if you cross a dog with a soft temperment with a hard-tempered GSD, you are likely to get a fear biter. And that is EXACTLY what the non-ISSR breeders are doing! Their gene pool is too inbred, so they are outcrossing to GSDs. There have been over 100 such outcrosses in the last 10 years. Soon these dogs will be more GSD than Shiloh, ruining 20 years of careful breeding by the breed founder. 

As for my puppy, she was the most submissive one in a litter of seven. She scored an 8 out of 10.  Recently, she developed fear issues with someone approaching her when she's outside and trying to pet her. We've been working hard on overcoming that. I think it's possible a neighbour of mine who's complained about my dogs barking might have come onto the property and yelled at her and frightened her. She is fine with guests who come to my home, and will approach them and ask to be petted. That's why I suspect my neighbour is the one who caused this, as it ONLY happens when she's outside.

[sigh] Blair, did you REALLY read my post? I have no worries AT ALL about my dog biting someone!  That's the 'sliver' dogs, the dogs that splintered off from the ISSR (the breed founder's registry.) and are crossing their dogs with GSDs, and sometimes other dogs of unknown parentage. I think it's been confirmed that one breeder outcrossed to a wolf. I'll say it again:

IN ALL THE TIME I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE SHILOH SHEPHERD I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF AN ISSR DOG BITING SOMEONE! 

If I had bough a pup with a less submissive temperment, I would not be having this problem. Mea culpa...I wanted a female, and the other two females in the litter were longcoats, which I didn't want. THEY scored about a one or a two on submission!

What I like about her: she is EXTREMELY biddable and easy to train. She is very affectionate and very bonded to me. She cocks her head, and tries really hard to understand what I'm saying to her. She gets along great with other dogs, and can even be a bit of a PITA when playing with my two GSDs. She sometimes shies away from people, but she has NEVER growled or lifted her lip at them. I am convinced she will outgrow this with more socialization. It was hard to find opportunities to socialize her during the nearly five months of winter we get here in the north.

Read this link. I'm too tired to explain it really well right now. The main thing that drew me to the breed was the smarts. If you want to know just how smart these dogs can be, read about Mali, who is a litter sister to my puppy's mother:

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/360366.html

I read the post and see you mean your pup was not crossed with a gsd rite?  And with the smarts you like in the shiloh you dont see that in your gsd?  The whole description you give describes my 2yr gsd female except the shyness to stranger part.  If you just wanted something diffrent that is ok i just wondered if you saw something lacking in gsd what you think i shiloh has?

Okay, I have 2 GSDs. My 8 year old male rescue has an ideal temperment for a service dog. He is stable, calm and very focused on me. He is also very attentive to sounds. I did not teach him this, he came by it naturally and I trained him as to which sounds he needed to alert me to. Even with the ones he's not trained for, he still helps me to be more aware of what's going on around me just by focussing on them. He is very reliable. I've had him in a room where the floor was covered with crumbs from potato chips and other snacks, and after one 'leave it' command, he didn't even bother sniffing at them. He will lie calmly at my feet for an hour or more while I'm listening to a lecture. He is not frightened by loud music or traffic or strangers. Although he likes to be petted, he is not always pushing for it, and knows that when he's working, he's to leave people alone and not sniff them. I have no idea what his bloodlines are, or I'd be looking for another dog from the same lines to replace him when he can no longer work. (He definitely looks to be from working lines.)  He alerts to people approaching the house with a loud booming bark, and no one in their right mind would dare come into my house when he's on the other side of the glass door, though he's fine once I have let them in.

My female GSD has a higher drive, and is very ball and prey oriented. If something moves, she tends to lose her focus. I had her at a horse show last summer. EVERY TIME a horse trotted past, she broke her sit!  She tends to rush into things headlong, too, which is probably why I had to deskunk her once last summer. She's smart, she curious and a little dominant when it comes to other dogs. She's definitely not shy around strangers, and will try to bully them if they are afraid of her. (NOT a good characteristic for a service dog!)

At 9 months, my Shiloh pup THINKS and stops to observe before she approaches another dog or animal. She already walks better on the leash than my female GSD does at 3 years (rarely pulls). She does not often approach strangers and ask to be petted. She usually just sits and watches them. If she can overecome her fear of people approaching her outside, I think she will make a good service dog.

There is lots to like about the GSD, but I think breeding for sport dogs has selected for a dog that is so prey/ball driven that it has trouble focussing on other things. In some ways it is almost like a hunting dog. Once the chase is on (search for the decoy or ball or whatever) everything else goes from its mind. (Please, this is a generalization, and I realize not all dogs are like this, so don't flame me!)  Not everyone wants a dog with that sort of drive.

The appearance of the shiloh was also a major factor. I hate what has happened to the American dogs, the overangulation, the bitchy heads and weak temperments. I also dislike the roached backs and saggy rears of the German showlines. The working lines have retained a more natural appearance, and look more like the GSDs I remember seeing when I was younger. However, they do tend to have higher drive than the showline dogs, and might not be a good choice for a service dog. The shiloh has retained the appearance of the earlier shepherds from the 60s, and has a more laid back temperment, so I decided to give it a try.

And hey, who could resist this face? 

As for my shiloh being 'crossed with a GSD', until 1990, ALL Shilohs were GSDs, bred under the Shiloh kennel name. Then an outcross was made to a GSD/Malemute mix named Samson. At that point, they became a separate breed. Tina focused on crossing her 4 foundation lines, based on 4 bitches she had chosen. When the lines became too inbred, she introduced two outcrosses, a longhaired German Shepherd (Alte Deutscher Schaeferhund) named Artus, and a white GSD named Hoofprint Orbit. These are the ONLY two outcrosses she has made in the last 20 years. If you are trying to fix breed type, you CANNOT do it by continually outcrossing to unrelated dogs! And that is exactly what the breeders who are not affiliated with the ISSR are doing!

Sunsilver wrote "I have NEVER heard of one of Tina's dogs biting someone. There was an incident someone posted on the forum a few days ago which describes how an ISSR Shiloh usually reacts to uninvited strangers."

My ISSR Shiloh Shepherd bit someone just today, so if you read this you'll now hear of one of Tina's dogs biting someone. It happens. They're dogs, and just like humans they come with a variety of flaws as well as lovely traits.

Babushka, what were the circumstances? And what's the dog's breeding?

QUOTE: If you look at most Shilohs that have been rehomed many will say no small kids, no other pets and that the dog is anxious or shy. Maybe someday I will have another Shiloh, but I'm really happy with my GSD puppy - she has the perfect temperament.

Michelle

Michelle, I have a "rehomed" Shiloh and you would have to look long and hard to find a better family pet. His temperament is superb- he is well-balanced, trust worthy, gun sure, intelligent, highly trainable, has solid nerves and will protect if the need arises. We have also gotten him certified as therapy dog. He goes to nursing homes weekly and we have taken him to a facility that has severely disabled children attached to all kinds of machines. He just lays there and cuddles with the kids. He is just a typical Shiloh.

The best,
Char

Your dog comes from the Drummonds right? After he was killed in a plane crash I heard there was a huge scramble to get the dogs rehomed. I hadn't ever met any of their dogs but liked how they looked and they seemed to have good temperaments from what I knew of them. As breeders they just seemed to have one oops litter after another. But at least they had nice dogs.