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by VomMarischal on 21 June 2010 - 01:06
"They don't have the athleticism, intelligence, and trainability of GSD."
THAT is what you wrote. And of course you are wrong, because yes, they do. Some of them have the athleticism, intelligence, and trainability of SOME GSDs.
by NoCurs on 21 June 2010 - 03:06
I just havent seen where GSD are considered "agile" dogs. You don't see that many in agility now, do you? Sure, some, but they sure don't "rule" in the sport of AGILITY. The simple fact is, a small, wiry dog is more agile than a large, long dog. One ofthe reasons the WSP has very, very few GSD in their program is the fact that a 75 pound GSD has a MUCH harder time getting around in the front of a car (searching) than a 40 pound pit bull. Not just size - agility. Show bred GSD walk like egg-beaters, just not my idea of "agile"; they look like their rears would fall over in a stiff wind.
Oh well, it was such a silly comment that it doesn't really require much more discussion. As to being "defensive" about the number of crappy, defensive, man-biting "pit bulls" currently in shelters, I don't quite understand how you came to the conclusion that I don't agree with you! Perhaps you were too busy being defensive? I totally agree, which is why I stated that the chance of you (or anyone) getting a chance to see or work with a "real" (meaning typey) APB is pretty rare. The shelters are filled with BYB crap, and most kennels today are young punks breeding the blue Am Staff crap. Short, fat, wide dogs who, BTW, have NO AGILITY! LOL!
I just wanted to point out that mastiffs and bulldog types were "the" guard dog of choice up until the turn of the last century. When police started looking for dogs to use, the chose the sheepdog types because they were intelligent, easily trained, and wouldn't murder suspects when they grabbed them like some mastiff might do. As well, mastiffs aren't that interested in running down the road to get a bad guy, they are bred for protection of their property.
Pit bulls have always been decent family protectors because they have good perception... like my SchH titled dogs which have allowed the many workers to enter my property these past 3 months with out any aggression (my house being rebuilt after burning down) because there just wasn't a threat. Why should they go ape-shit over someone who belongs there and is not a problem? I don't want a dog who can't figure that out and challenges everyone everytime (though there is certainly a place for dogs like that in the world). They have low defense as they are VERY confident dogs. Obviously, when you are confident you don't go around threatening people. I mean, gosh, look at the people on this board that threaten people... (case closed!) : )
I hope American pit bulls are never considered for military or police bite-work; it goes against what the breed IS. It is really sad for those of us who know the breed to see what fad breeding has done to the dogs, as they really are the gentlest of breeds. Like I've said many times, at SchH club, mine is the only vehicle with no barking directed toward humans... they greet everyone with friendly confidence. People can reach in, take things etc...
BTW: Anyone seen Leri Hanson's pit bull bitch doing ring sport? I just watched her get High Score Ring I at a large trial. Fun to watch!
by NoCurs on 21 June 2010 - 03:06
Of course, I don't mind it NEARLY as bad as when "pit bull breeders" misspell the breed name!!! LOL!
by Adi Ibrahimbegovic on 21 June 2010 - 04:06
by Bhaugh on 21 June 2010 - 06:06
I think No Curs that your remarks were right on. Thanks for the info.
by leciesters doghandler on 21 June 2010 - 12:06
thanks nocurs your answers was spot on
by GSDguy08 on 21 June 2010 - 14:06
The police dog trainer that has worked with Anubis said he trained a Pit Bull/Malinois mix one time. He said that was one dog he was afraid of. The speed and agility of the Malinois with the bite of a Pit Bull. Probably one hiddeous looking dog.
To whoever said they lack intelligence.... I disagree. They don't seem as smart to me in a lot of areas that the GSD are, but to me that's like saying the Siberian Husky is a stupid breed. Some on here probably know I have four. It's the breed known for "stupidity", being stubborn, untrainable, etc. When really, I've found them to be as smart if not smarter than most other breeds I've worked with. Huskies are a breed who only do something if they see a point to it,. They can do obedience well with the right person....in my opinion, all four of mine are very well versed in obedience, all follow on leash regardless of their desire to pull, and they don't have the problems most Husky owners have because most owners just aren't educated enough to own a Husky. I even had a friend in Indiana try to tell me Huskies were stupid, they lack sense of direction, and they aren't easy to train. She said they lack sense of direction because a neighbor of hers has one who roams a lot.....which is totally normal if they don't get to go for a huge amount of exercise, they'll do it on their own.
I'd say some Pit Bulls are capable of it, but whether or not they should do that work would be the ideal question.
by K-9mom on 21 June 2010 - 21:06
I think No Cur hit it right on the head. His post shows me that he knows the breed VERY well. That was the first thing I learned about them is how intelligent they are (how do you think those street level losers get the dogs trained so well so quickly??). I am thinking you may be thinking of a Bulldog not an APBT.
I do agree that they would not make good Patrol Dogs due to the defense and bitework. A decently bred APBT is not human aggressive unless never socialized. I have seen ABPT's come into our shelter who had the shit beat out of them and were still upset to leave their owners. They are a very loyal breed and just as No Cur mentioned, would be culled from the ring if they tried to bite their handler, even if bleeding to death or in severe pain. A Patrol GSD gets hurt and a muzzle is slapped on them because they can't be trusted.
They also have high drive normally and are ball crazy. It didn't take me more than a few days to get Goober searching over desks, under tables, under the van, in the wheel wells, etc simply to find his ball. I would agree with whomever said they are probably better for short periods of work as they do not control the energy and burn out quicker. I am thinking they may not work for Military because they seem to overheat due to their not controlling their energy and I don't see them working out well in the desert situation (nor would they be perfect in the Tundra because they get frost bite).
Just my 2 cents.........
by TessJ10 on 21 June 2010 - 22:06
And sorry, the proof is in the puddin' - WHERE ARE THESE APBT is SAR, in police work, in national and international Schutzhund competitions? WHERE ARE THEY? You can point to a random one here and there, but heck there are Standard Poodles and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers with SchH 3 titles. Again, if they could beat the Malis and the GSD in national and international competitions consistently, the top handlers would have them in order to win. You simply cannot win the argument that they are a superior breed for any of these endeavors. They simply are not. Look around.
As VM (and others) wrote: "Some of them have the athleticism, intelligence, and trainability of SOME GSDs."
Exactly right. SOME of them can match up with SOME GSDs, but that's it.
by yankee girl on 21 June 2010 - 23:06
A apbt won the FR III @ a national event either last yr or the yr prior. Leri Hanson wins quite often in FR with her APBT's as do many in FR. She has also won the nationals for the working apbt club. Diane Jessop succesfully trains apbt's from the shelters and are placed in PD's all over the country.
nocurs said it right, most people dont know what a real pitbull is. most of what you see are byb crap ! and forget the ukc or akc show dogs, they are far from what a pitbull is.
A real pitbull is a very athletic dog. 30 to 50lbs is the norm and they are lean, not over done. definatly not these 80 to 100lb monsters that so many think are pits. they can run for miles on end, extreemly agile and can handle almost anything you ask of them. I have owned them for 30 plus yrs and have owned hundreds of them.
Do i think they should be used for partol work? definalty not but they are great at detection, sar and really enjoy doing sports work. Someone keeps talking sch this sch that but many clubs wont train with anything but gsd and mali's and even mali's arent excepted too well but there are apbt's out there doing it and are great dogs who love the sport.
just as with gsd, there are certain bloodlines that are more willing to please and love to work. the same is true with apbt's.
I own both and almost everyday i take out 2 shepherds and 1 of the pits and we are off on a 5 mile run (well me on the atv) and the apbts have no problem keeping up the the shepherds.
Ive retiered from showing & weightpulling (in the adba) and i have very few pitbulls left here. I have 3 gsd that are training for PSA so that is my main focus. Too me compairing gsd to the apbt is like compairing apples to oranges. it makes no sence as they were bred for totally different things.
There have been apbt's used in war and during WWI, it was an apbt that represented the us as our national dog.
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