Demodex Mange - Page 2

 James, why breed a dog w/any health problems at all? Unless that dog was the last one alive who __________ I wouldn't touch a dog who displayed demodex w/a ten foot pole for breeding. I don't think breeding decisions should be made so much on a "lesser of two evils" basis as much as a "as close to perfect as we're ever going to find." That's what I meant by my post.

It is prettty well established within the veterinary community that the predisposition for puppies/young dogs exhibiting symptoms of demodex seems to be heritable from the female. Now whether the female carries the mite and the immature immune system is unable to deal with it or the immune system is weak due to heritable factors is unknown.  "is the cart before the horse,....or behind.....?" 

Nevertheless, demodex can be a devastating issue or a simple to cure issue, but you cannot know until you deal with it.

Based on what I have personally seen in veterinary practice over 15 years, I would not continue to breed anything from which demodex showed up in the puppies.

We have had reeealllly good results in clearing the condition in puppies and young dogs with Promeris. its flea and tick control seem to leave a lot to be desired, but it is a good delivery system for Amitraz. 

Thanks for all the post...she is going to the vet in the morning....we shall see!!!

@Jenni, (I apologize in advance for the long post)  using your formula, why vaccinate? If a puppy developes a kennel cough, parvo, etc treat the guy and then spayed, neuter and cull it from the gene pool. Because if it was strong it's immune system would be able to fight it off. I believe the reason we see these developements in puppies to young dogs because the immune systems are still developing. Now I do agree that the stronger puppies or the puppies exposed to the least amount of stress will be less likely to develope demodex or even a cold for that matter. I believe culling a dog for puppy hood demodex is kind of extreme when it has not been determined if is environmental exposure or heredity.

jmposa, If it has not been determined if the dam is passing demodex by passing a hereditable disposition or just by pure exposure to a puppies none fully developed immune system why recommend not breeding the female versus treatment of the female before breeding.

Seems like a fairly easy experiment set up.

Control Group A: breed Dam who is known to have had demodex as a puppy and/or has produced a litter of puppies that has developed demodex

Experimental Group B: Breed Dam who is known to have had demodex as a puppy and/or has produced a litter of puppies that has developed demodex but treat her with a virbac collar or promeris treatment before breeding or whelping the litter

Compare the results of Group A to Group B. If the group B litter still developes demodex at the same rate as group A than it would conclude that it would be more likely that the demodex is heredity and more research would need to be done to isolate the gene.

But if Group B has a lower rate of developing demodex than Group A than one could conclude that the demodex was more likely from pure exposure and enviromental factors.

Totally unrelated issues, James. Kennel cough, parvo, and demodex cannot be compared. You cannot compare a virus to a parasite that ALL dogs have and only weaker/sick/immosupressed dogs will show evidence of. Kennel cough is a pain, but no big deal. Parvo kills- fast. It is not a naturally occurring mite that some dogs just can't handle- it's a hellishly strong virus. I think breeding unvaccinated parvo survivors makes a lot more sense than breeding a dog who shows mange. 

The expression of the problem is hereditary or the result of weakened immunity- for whatever reason. I just think erring on the side of caution  applies here; I would RUN from anyone suggesting breeding a dog w/demodex. 

I also think "stress" induced demodex is enough of a problem to not breed anyway....strong enough dogs to be bred should be strong enough not to get so "stressed" out.

I'm picky. I never said I wasn't, and I'm extreme and I admit it. I won't apologize though; I want stronger dogs overall. We're too permissive about what we breed. 

Jenni, If all breeders thought like you the GSD would be a much healthier breed! SAdly, there are people out there breeding GSDs with all kinds of health, structural and temperament issues.
Char

By no means am I asking you to apologize Jenni. I actually have nothing but respect for your stance. I just disagree with this decision. I know the affects and differences of mites versus other parasites such as viruses. But if you wanna truly weed out the weak, don't vaccinate, dont give any flea or tick treatments, and just let the strongest survive. Yes what you end up with is a very strong line of dogs, but in the process you may weed out quite a few good dogs. We are in aggreement with structural, temperment issues, and many other health related issues. But puppy hood demodex is on the same level as a cold to me.

The only thing I have to add to this discussion is that there are reasons other than heredity for a weakened immune system.

I know this because Pharaoh went through an episode of demodex in his youth.  He had been treated with steroids and daily Benadryl for what two different vets diagnosed as allergies.  I paid for the allergy testing and he came up with ZERO allergies!!!!!

But, he had symptoms that could be interpreted as allergy, and the Benadryl continued.......for a long time.  The rationale for why the allergy testing was negative was that it would turn positive in a year or so......

Fortunately, I ran into someone who suggested that he had an irritation going on because of shredded redwood fir bark (gorilla hair) degrading over time into micro splinters.

Once I knew what it was, it stopped the exposure.  It has been close to a year now and still no allergies.

The two incidents of demode were during the steroid and antihistamine era.  I was not willing to go with any further veterinary treatments.  I asked German Shepherd people, schutzhund people and here for advice.  I did a lot of research and went with a small, inexpensive jar of Goodwinol.  It cleared up the localized spot immediately.

His immune system had been weakened, but it wasn't by heredity.  It was Iatrogenic.

I wonder how much the Benadryl has impacted his temperament.

Michele

 Michelle, absolutely there can be other triggers and reasons for weakened immune system. If you know there's a reason, that's a little different.

James, that's how I do things. ;-)  I know of no better way to weed out the weak. I don't give any flea or tick treatments, and I have no fleas or ticks. If you are interested in the welfare of the breed as a whole, you do things differently than if you're more concerned about the individual. I'm not cherry picking; I follow what I'm saying and have had very good results. I think to only breed the strongest, you need to raise them as naturally as possible, and while you will most assuredly have illnesses, the ones who bounce right back are the breeders, IMHO. 

Jenni I can respect that.