Aggression disposition - Page 2

Sam:

              When looking at puppies what catches your eye first?

When I get to see a litter I like to watch them for a while from a distance then (if allowed) set down with them on the floor and lay down with them see who comes and checks me out. i,ll crawl around and see who keeps checking me out just spend some time with the litter then I ll get up and walk away making hand gestures moving arms around just walking seeing who is interested and who isn,t then I,ll start to trot or slowly run and see who stays with me and who doesn't. Then I,ll set down with them and use my hands to see who is playful and not afraid to bite me hands,pants, shirt, ect... then i,ll take out a small rag of burlap and see who wants to work with it.

When I take the the pup home I like to introduce him to a helper quickly but not with a rag or toy first we do lots of peekaboo from behind blinds,barrels, doors shrubs, ect... after he/she has figured out that looking for the man gets the game going then we play the rag games and such. I always try to make sure that right from the start the puppy knows that attention to the man gets the game started. 

It takes a good helper to teach the pup that he can kick the shit out of the helper right off the bat...      I was lucky to have a helper right from the start that loves to work puppies. But if you ask him he would alway say"I hate Puppies"

Ladyfrost, my dogs will do all those things and at a faster rate. I live with the unruliness (sp) while I'm promoting the drive. I don't take a 7 or 8 wk puppy and put manners on it until the foundation is there. I see people making the dog sit at 7 weeks for a treat. I want the puppy to push me for the reward. I'll live with a wild child until drive is promoted and we move onto commands in the play. The faster they do it, the faster the reward (ball/food). Jumping on people? Well when they're little, people don't seem to mind. This is usually through the socialization stage. As they get older, they know commands and I don't worry about dampening drives as much. Bob, I do some of the same things. I like to see focus with the rag, bite grip, etc. I test food drive too. Individually, I place the food harder and harder to get at up an inclined ramp. Increase the incline. Tests more than food drive too. I'll test for sound and floor sensitivity. I've got a set of tiny tennis balls that I like for pups. I'l simply observe them amongst their littermates too. Check their willingness to readily follow a stranger. Etc. Etc.

Sam..thanks, it an odd way it makes perfect sense...unfortunately I am one of those who demand discipline and following commands especially inside the house and around Italian leather furniture which cost more then my car... (I will try your way on my next pup, it just didn't seem like an option until now...)  THANKS... :)

Well I hope you understood. I was typing that as I was getting ready to lay a track. In essense I let a puppy be a puppy and promote the behavior I think makes a good sport/working prospect. I have kids now and it does make it harder to do this. If I was seriously interested in being a national or world competitor, I'd probably keep the pup in a kennel when not working and only bring it in the house in a super controlled situation. I don't though. I just try to teach the kids how to substitute his toy for the kid's toy that is currently in his mouth. I try to get the kids to not leave toys, pillows, junk all over, but you know how that goes. As they get older, they know what is theirs and what is acceptable. Puppies jump on kids and everything. As they get older they tend not to do that.

bob , you have to answer the first part of your question first , before even looking at the second part

that part is
if two litter mates from the same breeding carry the same genetics

I dont know the pedigree of your dog , but the chance of two littermates having the same genetic buildup is very small ,  especially when they are out of an outcrossbreeding ,this is also the case when people advertize repeat breedings , the  chance to get identical twins is almost zero there also

for the second part
right or wrong socializing and training  can make or brake a dog , so if you have two dogs with similar drives/hardness and agression , one is allowed to grow mentally and the other one is hold short , and put in place at the right time , you will see a big difference between the two on later age , however that doesnot change what they will produce in caracter traits 

The biggest advantage is to  know the parents and the grand parents.  If the
puppies are coming off a really good blood line, there will be tell, tell,
similarities even though there only puppies. There are the usual traits you look for
as well, happy, confident playful, and even play drive with tennis ball. But a breeder will
see his bloodline in his pups because he knows the parents really well.... It's like saying
that one takes after his father, mother, or grand father.. kind of thing. The first thing I do is
eliminate the ones I don't want, than it's down to just two puppies.

Bob,
          In the late 80's I got a call, from David Deleissegues.....He was excited about a littler
he had. There were six pups, 4 males.  One of the pups was so vicious that the other
puppies were aways in fear of him. Even though he had bred what should have been a good
litter, it was anything but. The father of the litter never did reproduce him self. Genetics are
primary.There are very good crosses as well,  and if the sire is line bred he has a better chance
at throwing his traits.

Here is a very good interview with Wayne Simanovich on genetic. If you have never read this.


http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0105.htm

My males father (Troll von Haus Milinda) was line breed. Axel was line breed on Robby Glockeneck,Verwin,Gilla Blitzaerd. I,m just trying to get more imput on opinions as to the effect of Nature vs Nurture.

I don,t take breeding lightly and am even more concerned on this breeding. If I created lots o litters I probably would not get so caught up in it but it,s just how i do it. I never want to be known as a breeder. 

Accidental bump

That Wayne Interview is very good on that link I left on my post.

There is nothing written in stone,   just alot of rules of thumb.

# 1.....You get what you get when the sperm hits the egg.


#2.....You can't make a mediocre dog a super dog, but you can
make a super dog a mediocre.


#3......Genetics have a mind of the own, even with best laid plans.


#4......For every rule there is an exception.


5#. A puppy is simply one lotto ticket. The odds of walking away with
a championship are very small.


#6. Start with the best, before you breed, ..junk in...junk out.


#7. You have a very good breeding and you worry too much. I say you have
a very good chance at some very good puppies.

Those are Max's 7 rules.


I have only seen two puppies that were vicious and had to be put down for
that reason in my life time. It is rare. A vicous dog is a mentally ill dog.