Would You ?..... - Page 2

           see above posting....              
            

Ruger1 I've been reading your posts for several weeks and have never bothered to chime in but I can't sit back and watch any longer...

Personally, I think you should continue with the class.  Perhaps asking the trainer why the golden retriever received the amount of correction it did and the idea behind it.  You need to get control of your dog and frankly the behaviors you are reporting are NOT going to go away.  I spent a year trying to avoid strong corrections with my very dog aggressive pup.  I went to clicker training... I tried treats... I tried staying home... I tried reading everything on the net... but ultimately what it comes down to is that YOU have to decide what behavior is acceptable and what is not and make the dog comply.

If that Golden would have come into my dog's space before I gained control it could have been ugly.  The dog could have been injured and I would have had to deal with knowing my dog hurt another dog.  The Golden MUST be under control by it's owner for it's own safety.  It is better to get a strong correction in training class and not be hurt or killed when it does it at the local park.   Running up to another unknown dog is unacceptable behavior.  It could be running up to another playful I love everybody dog or it could be running into a dog aggressive dog who will want to eat it for lunch. 

Your scenario is even worse, if a person gets in Prince's face and he makes the decision to bite you are going to have to deal with that and the liability that goes along with it. 

A German Shepherd is a large and extremely powerful breed.  You can never take that for granted, with the beauty and intelligence go a large responsibility.  Your dog shows aggression to people.  It is something you send down the line which is what the trainer was attempting to show you when she took him and had a stranger approach him.  She was comfortable with the person approaching and Prince accepted her judgement.  I believe the behaviorist showed you the same thing when they came into your home and Prince was fine.

 Until someone can walk up to you and shake your hand while you hold your dog on leash and you don't have fear or apprehension of what will happen, it will continue to happen.  How you get there is a matter of choice.  It is YOU that have to get there NOT Prince.  He will follow your lead but not until he knows that you are doing your job of determining who and what is safe to approach you. 

I have various thoughts on how or why this behaviour started but my guess is that it probably first happened when he was in a fear period of puppyhood and you inadvertantly reinforced it by consoling him assuming he was afraid.  Next time, he saw a person he thought OH I should growl and bark and Mom will pat me. Soon, he had you getting tense everytime someone approached and NOW you have a full blown problem.  He has now been taught when Mom is tense I should growl and bark. 

You may have also inadvertantly rewarded the behavior by treating him to attention and treats when it ceased.  Thus, the next time a stranger approaches he thinks OH I am supposed to growl and bark and I will get a cookie and a pat when they back away.  I really don't know what occurred ... I do know that unless YOU get it under control its a ticking time bomb.  It is not a matter you can let fester for fear of being TOO harsh or seeing something unpleasant. One bite to the right/wrong person can cost you your home and Prince's life.

If you do not feel that you can do what is necessary to get the dog under control I would

CONT...

return the dog to the breeder and take it as a lesson learned.  German Shepherds are not for everyone and it is better to learn that now and not later when it is too late to take back the bite.

That is my 2 cents!

                       see above posting....                                                    

Ruger,  I totally disagree that you should stick with someone or a training class,  that you are uncomfortable with. I think a private trainer, someone that is familiar with your type of dog and situation, would be a great idea for you. Are there any working dog people close by to help you find someone? There isn't a working dog club around?

As for the Golden, if they are correcting the puppy after it ran away to visit, then that's wrong.  However, if what they did, turned your stomach, then it isn't the place for you.

What's good is that you avoided a dog fight, but with training a lot is possible.  I.e.,  I once had a large and powerful, possessive male dog, that was sitting by me on lead, calmly. I was holding a toy in my free hand, when out of nowhere, a Dobe escaped his handler and bolted up to take the toy from me. Thankfully, I had taught my dog the "leave it" command and as fast as it all happened, those words came out of my mouth and my dog obeyed and backed off! Although I had worked and worked to have him under control, he was never tested like this & frankly, I was suprised how it all worked so well. There is no way I could have prevented a fight otherwise, as if my dog wasn't versed in this command, I would have been caught in the crossfire of a huge dog fight...let alone what the dogs would have done to each other.

If you could find someone that has experience with large, powerful dogs.... Have a conversation (or two) with the new trainer  and ask lots and lots of questions.

Uh, I've seen people train dogs like this "trainer" you describe and they don't know what they are doing. It is abusive, plain and simple. No wonder you were disgusted.  I would never go back. I felt the trainer was an idiot after the last class, when she took your dog away.

Ok, I've read enough just by seeing that the woman smacked the puppy...anyone who thinks that hitting or kicking a puppy has any place in training has no business working with dogs.  Just because it wasn't your dog this time, doesn't mean she wouldn't resort to similar behavior when she runs out of options (and it doesn't sound like she has many) with him.  I would ask for a refund for the remainder of your classes on the basis that you don't agree with her training methods.  If she wants to make a stink about it, so can you...if she's willing to risk her reputation over a couple of hundred dollars.

How old is the Golden pup?

see above post....

This trainer is no trainer based on what I have read.

This is an obedience class?

Between this and the behaviorist I'm feeling sorry for the dog at this point.

Training can involve a strong hand but you never hit a dog on the head, and trainers would not grab the leash from you and correct your dog, they may try to show you how but not do it for you.

Your dog at this age should be much further along.

I feel he is only frustrated and confused and not alone in my opinion.

Again feeling sorry for the dog, actually a lot of dogs I feel sorry for.

Now you have two threads going basically about the same thing, more confusion.

Tons of money is not going to cure the problem in my opinion.

So... whats your next move?  
And what is your goal at this point?

              Moons....I know that I must look like a real fool to this board. I am  ashamed that I was so ill prepared to deal with the issue I have with Prince. I really think that Prince has taken it all in stride....My mo-do has been, if unsure...make it fun and positive in some way....I have taken this approach with Prince and he has been very happy with his training experiences.  He is moving along well with his obedience exercises. Prince has always been as obedient, if not more obedient than all the dogs in his classes. With the training classes we have attended and the feed back from the board, I have a lot to work on at home. The thing I need is hands on help  in correcting Prince for showing aggression toward strangers, and to find out what is causing the aggression. I have made arrangements with a respected trainer who knows Prince's breeding well. I think with consistent, fair correction, and confidence building Prince is going to be the next Sieger Champion.....lol..... I chalk it up to a learning experience....Prince and I will get through it....with a little help...

                                                                                        Thanks for the post...Ruger1