Question to Working Line Breeders - Page 2

Schaeferhund1,
I do not think that is what Sam Spade had in mind with his post.

Sam Spade,
let me answer from my perspective: I have been breeding for a while now and I do have both, showlines and workinglines. Even though I breed with utmost care and usually take my girls to Germany for the best matches possible I still mostly sell my puppies into companion homes. It used to bother me a lot and at the beginning, I tried to give incentatives like money back for titles etc., but I stopped worrying about it. Now, I feel that my puppies are better off in companion homes where they are unconditionally loved and do not fall out of grace to be given away or pawned off. In short, I take a great pet home anyday over a show or sport home. When I read here that so called competitors want a replacement or refund because their puppy supposedly did not have the drive or temperament to be titled, it wants to make me scream: Don't you want to take some responsibility for that in raising and socializing the little guy? People who know me know that I try to place my puppies with the most suitable people and that I have refused some because I had doubts. After a couple of mismatches, I try to be overly cautious. Years ago, somebody told me the reason he is paying XXX-breeder's puppy (showline) and pay the outrageous price is because that breeder is wellknown, is comfortable with all the judges and will guarantee him to be on the podium. It was a real eye opener on how people think. Sickening, eh? The same seems to hold true in the workingline world. People either feel they have to buy from people who have a track record themselves or from people who have titled their own dogs or compete (even though they have no clue about breeding and genetics - points are not passed on). When you look to Germany, you will see that most successful breeders are not competitors and vice versa - exception: von den Woelfen Zwinger and Talka Marda and a couple of others. The big workingline kennels usually have their dogs titled by somebody else as well but nobody here either seems to mind or know. When I bought my super producing and beautifully structured workingline girl Chuckie (now retired), I got a lot of inquiries and people wanted me to repeat her successful litter in Germany but I refused because I breed for myself and not for others. If I was in it for money and to sell to top sports people, I would have done it. Over here, you will find different categories of (workingline) breeders: Some only breed to points and fame, others ride on the pedigrees of their dogs alone and will not title their stock with the excuse that they know how their dogs are and they are serious "true" working dogs (they do personal protection in the backyard, lol) and some breed their females only to the club buddy's male because they can't be bothered with time, efforts and travel expenses.    ... continued

I'm curious if working line breeders get a lot of buyers who buy the dog for sport or work and end up not following through.  I was kind of the opposite, I bought a dog for something else and ended up doing SchH.  Now I am looking for another dog, this time definitely for SchH above all else and when I contact breeders and tell them my intentions I wonder how many take it seriously or think, "Sure, like I haven't heard that before..."

Others are not any better than backyard breeders because they buy their stock (both females and male) and only interbreed their own, claiming to have "worldclass litters". You find them on both sides, show and working.
When you look to the other side, the interested buyer: Some have the best intentions and when they realize how much time and effort is involved, they slowly fall off the wayside. Others go through one puppy after the other and will never accomplish anything but blame it on the breeder and the bad puppy they got. And then there are the very few (wonderful) people who stick to this one puppy out of devotion and finish what they start. These are the ideal puppy owners, but they are rare. Yes, I am happy when I find somebody who is sincere and wants to do something with that puppy, but I do not require it. I want a great companion home where my guys are appreciated for what they are. People who come back a second or third or even fourth time make me happy, regardless of what they do with their family addition, couch or training field (that is a German expression, lol).
Chris

chris Thank you for your honesty. I guess personally, I would breed less if I couldn't find some homes that the dogs were going to be evaluated. I'm not saying what you said was wrong or that I disagree with your philosophy. I know you're a well respected breeder. I know that you have a vast knowledge of breeding. It just seems that we have a lot of breeders in this country that are either breedinf for a purpose, but cannot find enough working homes because there is a greater supply than demand, OR they are simply not too concerned with the results of what they produce. If either one is true, then they should breed less or not at all.

Silbersee;

I quote Sam Spade on my post: "...You actually argued and made my point in one post..."

Thank you

I agree with Powerhaus - I have a boarding/training kennel, and I HATE LABS too!  They are obnoxious, untrained, spoiled, fat, loud (nuisance barkers), destructive, dirty, messy with water, they shed more than any other breed - and did I mention obnoxious?  I would much rather have an entire kennel full of Pitbulls and Rotts and Poodles, rather than one Lab.  Ok, off my soapbox, too.

As a workingline breeder I too used to spend a lot of time, energy and effort trying to get my puppies into "serious working homes".  Now I care much more about the homes - and in general it's the "pet companion" homes that are best for the dog.  That is where they will live out their entire lives even if they end up not being perfect for working - their owners love them and appreciate them and take great care of them.  I love getting pictures of my dogs sitting on the couch with the family, going on vacation with the family, playing with the children.  "Serious" working homes are not always like that. 

So I breed my dogs to be exactly what I myself value in my own dogs.  Dogs that have plenty of drive, temperament and nerve to work - even for serious competitors.  But no "extremes" in drive, temperament or nerve - I don't want to own, and so I don't try to breed dogs that cant do BOTH - both a family companion, AND a top working dog.  Yes, the same dog can do both.  So my ideal home is one with someone who has serious plans for the dog - whether that plan is Schh, SAR, competitive obedience, agility, or service animal - who plans on the dog being also a part of the family and live in the house - or just a dog for a very active person/family, one that wants an active dog to accompany the active family in it's daily activities, and one that is willing and able to give the dog the training necessary for a working-bred animal.

I have been extremely successful over the years in placing my working puppies into such homes - ranging from serious competition homes to active pet/companion - but all of which consider the dog as an irreplaceable part of the family.

If I had to choose between a great pet/companion home and a serious competition home where the dog was not considered a part of the family - I would choose the pet/companion home, every day of the week.

molly
Eichenluft
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Silbersee,

I also agree in general in what you have said. As for the "big breeders" and their 'connections' this is an International PROBLEM, whether it is show-line or working line and until something is done in the way major events are judged, this PROBLEM will continue and dogs deserving of higher points and places will allways be unfairly done by!!!

But this is another topic all together and believe me a very very sensetiv one, when the are tens of millions dolloars/Euros involved.

Also agree that a great number of 'top breeders' do not actually even touch the inside of the ring or a trial...another very good working-dog breeder example is kennel Satori; I believe he has never personally taken a dog into atrial.

Sam,
I wholeheartedly agree with you. That is why breeding for a balance is the all important thing to do. 95% of dogs go into companion homes, period.  And for me, the definition of companion home is not a pet home only. It also includes people who want to do search and rescue, AKC obedience, agility, therapy work etc. etc. These people are in the majority and they need a stable dog. This kind of dog should have drive, a balanced temperament and be sociable. Sharp dogs are just as wrong as fearful creatures. And anybody who says that workingline puppies can't be fearful is dead wrong. In our years of tattooer and breed warden, my husband and I have seen our share of problems among workingline puppies as well, not only showlines.
A perspective buyer here in the U.S. can only check on the track record of a breeder by reputation or history. For me, that would be if the breeder keeps puppies back and titles them (or gets them titled). That is an indication for the evaluation you are speaking of. For me personally, that is more than relying on the breeder who breeds untitled stock (since he knows his dogs best, right?) and only occasionally refreshes his genepool by purchasing a puppy from overseas. Please note that it is a puppy, not a grown dog as that would be too much of a financial burden!
I would really like to hear from the self proclaimed breeders of "extreme drive and temperament". Where do they sell their puppies to? And please, do not give me that story of police departments. I am married to a (fed) LEO of 26 years and know that bigger police departments do not purchase puppies. The fallout and cost of raising is too high. Some LEOs of townships or small departments might buy a private puppy and "donate" it to the department they work for once it is grown up but that serves a private purpose. My better half is not involved in the K9 department anymore and has not been for many years, but  I do know how their program and K-9 budget works. Many years ago, I helped the Prince Georges County Police in MD acquire some dogs in Germany. They had approached me for help and I put them in touch with a German (retired) cop I knew. He used to evaluate dogs for his department., and that particular department in Germany has their own kennel and breeds Malis and German Shepherds. As far as I know, they are the only ones. Further, they used to give seminars for foreign police forces. I know of the Alabama State Police attending but that was back in the late 80s, if memory serves me correctly. My husband and I visited this police department in the early 90s on one of our trips to Germany (among other visits in the Netherlands - the Zaanstad PD and the British forces in Germany). That PD in Germany was the North Rhine Westphalian State Police and their SV registered kennel name is "von den Sennequellen". Their evaluator is now deceased, a big loss! But Felix had taught me to look for balance, no extremes!
Chris