Training with Treats?! - Page 2

I started to "dabble" with a clicker but didn't have enough commitment to carry through.  Personally, the thing I do like about it, is that it's an "unemotional" marker.  This, I think, makes the meaning more clear in the dog's mind and lessens stress for both handler and dog.  It's harder for ME to learn something new and timing is key when starting out.  So, if I can get myself to commit (I'll have a talk with me at some point, LOL), I just may try again.

marker or clicker training is the foundation of all obedience for me.  Dog training is all about consistency and timing.  the timing of your praise, the timing of dropping the ball, the timing of the click, the mark, the leash pop, the press of the remote collar, the pat on the side, the soothing voice, everything is based on timing.

and it needs to be done consistently, when the dog forges 2 inches, there must be that leash pop (if that's what you do) not 2 inches on one, 5 inches the next time, wait till they're completely wrapped for the next one, then back to 2 inches leeway.  It has to be consistent.  Same with teaching a sit with a mark, in the beginning, when the butt touches, you mark, not 10 seconds later, duration later.  Or with remote training, they don't get stim'ed sometimes, and not others.  You must be consistent.

marker/clicker training makes the timing and consistency part much easier for me.  It's not based on some abstract thought, it's what dog trainers have been doing forever when you get down to it.  You're rewarding what you want, and using some punisher (leash, verbal, withold reward) when they don't do what you want.  you're just using your a conditioned response to a voice mark or clicker rather than bending over to pet, or reaching for a ball or tug, in which case they can interpret any number of things as success or failure or position and muddy the waters so to speak.  I like clarity and consistency.

I clicker train with great success!

My "clicking" is a heck of a lot faster then my verbal marker. This allows me to instantly reward my dog for displaying a desired behavior. Their is a lot of science behind many +R methods, this is why I prefer to use +R over traditional training methods. My dogs and I have a wonderful relationship built on a foundation of trust, not coercion. I hear many people say "yeah, that stuff may work well for you but it's not going to work on a 'real' dog", well it sure does work on "real dogs".  My dogs are of working lineage, they're not push-overs by any sense of the phrase. Many +R methods are based on inter-species communication, most dogs respond quite well to this, regardless of their inherent drives. The "method" I follow, places a very strong emphasis on reading canine body language including the very subtle signs, like whisker folding, lip twitches, facial tension....etc.
Like others have said, do what's best for your dog. Not every method is effective on every animal. It's easy to criticize what you don't understand, but at least do some preliminary research before completely discounting a method. You never know; you may just cross over to the other-side!

It's nice to see some fellow +R practitioners on board!!


EDIT: I forgot to mention that I use a combination of verbal praise, food reward and toys. I always give at least one of these rewards for correct behavior.

Regarding OB training, I use bait when training a pup and to lure the dog into positions, etc., but I quickly switch to ball on rope because my dogs have always worked in a much higher drive state for the ball than food, and I want them to learn this is the drive state I want them to work in. 

I agree with everyone who says work with whatever works best for you and your dog, not everything is best for everyone.  Also it's not necessary for all dogs to constantly work in a high drive state, it depends on what you are doing with the dog, what your goals are.

Methods and elements used for praise can change per dog, age of dog, maturity of dog, exercise at hand, desire function of particular animal, results desired, behavior modification desired, mentality of dog, dogs motivator,  etc.....

food is a strong motivator for many dogs but i dont believe in using food as a sole training tool beyond developing puppies.

to defend marker training- I use this with my puppies, target training, and in the force fetch. I think it can be a useful tool. Keep in mind that just because you have a clicker doesnt mean you have to reward with food. A clicker simply signifies "good" and reward is coming. I like it in foundation for new learning in some scenarios as it makes an exercise fun and minimal pressure.Also the marker doesnt have to be a clicker. any sound or gesture easily recognized by the dog will suffice. 

Once again it all depends on the dog and many other variables.

GSDoogiemom,

Just friendly advice. Dont develope preconcieved notions about any methodology before you see all of its uses. I too was in the boat with "marker training is a joke" until i found some applications for it. I dont condone the all posi guys/gals whom say its the only way but thats a whole nother dicussion in itself.



Steve,

Can you elaborate on the guy in your club a little. How, When, What, Where, Why with his mali's?

I only ask because I just acquired a 9 month mali pup for PSA and trailing duties in which im doing her foundation obedience work with a clicker.  

I use a clicker with Georgia, since I can click without any other cues - in other words it prevents her watching my hands for a treat or toy since I can click with my hand in my pocket.  She knows she gets her toy at the end of the exercise.  I also use it to shape new behaviors - I am teaching her some silly tricks, and when she gets her foot close to where I want it, I click.

She loves her ball, and I try to save treats for tracking just to avoid overfeeding since we train every day.

Opal

Some very good advice, Yoshy, as it relates to not developing preconceived notions about any given methodology before seeing how they might work for you.  After having read this topic today, I did a little looking around and found an excellent article by Ed Frawley on the subject on his website: leerburg.com/markers.htm  I don't necesarily agree with Ed about everything on every subject and, like him, I resisted marker training for a long time for no other reason than that I was first exposed to it by the "gentle leader" crowd but this article is dead on.  It works.

It is important to note that the marker doesn't have to be a clicker, per se; it can be a word or a group of words that 'mark' the behavior.  As it works out, I had some left over ribeye steak from last night so when I got home tonight, I cut it into small pieces to use as a 'high quality reward' and these are my results within about 20 minutes:

It took about 5 minutes to establish the relationship between the marker and the reward and for him to understand that the marker and the reward do not occur simultaneously.

Short heeling was very good albeit a little hectic with some jumping toward where he thought the reward was.

I was able to get a stand out of motion, sit out of motion and platz out of motion, all with recall, all more than once.  When he broke, I simply led him back and went through the steps again...he never broke a second time.  The recalls were fast and furious; he was well engaged and excited during the entire session.

The discussion in the article about 'active vs. reactive dogs' is important and if you're reading your dog well, you will see him work through trying to figure out what you want him to do...quickly and with a lot of enthusiasm.  There was no compulsion or correction beyond the word, "nope."  I was not using a leash. 

Axel will be four months old Wednesday.
 

 I should add that I really like the clicker too for capturing minute slices of of an action that lead towards what you want.  You can click far faster than saying "yes", and the dog really does learn what the clicker means (i.e. "That was right!") very quickly. My current dog has been a challenge and a half to train, but because I was able to isolate and reward fractions of desirable behavior (as opposed to waiting for the full behavior, which would never have happened at the beginning) we were able to make good progress.  I don't always use the clicker because it's a pain to carry around, but the clicker and "yes" and the no reward marker (I just use a glottal stop sound) all have very clear meanings to my dog and get a reaction.  This is a dog who didn't listen to me when I got him -- he's adopted, and was neglected, and the human voice was meaningless. Praise or correction was *meaningless*.  Reward or correction was meaningless.  He had no clue that his actions led directly to desirable or undesirable consequences.  Now praise by itself is becoming rewarding, and he listens to me because he knows it's relevant. 

I don't know why rewards (of any kind) get such derision from certain quarters.  True, you're not always going to reward your dog with food for every right action, but if that (or a toy, or praise) is the quickest way to get him to realize that he's doing the right thing why *not* use it?  It's not like you can never, ever fade out the rewards, and once the behavior is really well engrained there's no need for a tangible reward.

Yoshy
Strange as it is i have not seen this Guy at the Club now for two weeks, He may be ill i dont know however he has two Mals both Clicker trained,  I have noticed that during the work on the field he only uses the Clicker no treats, The Dogs respond well to it and after the work they get a ball and a treat and one is ScH3, the other i do not know, I did try to speak to him several times but he only speaks French not even Dutch and My Flemish is not that great although i get by
When he comes back i will get someone to ask him how he started it and basically what he does from a Young Pup
Steve1