WGWL Service Dog breeder, Pedigree analysis help-"lord"? - Page 4

Pedigree Database

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by Hundmutter on 12 November 2021 - 16:11

I've been trying not to judge; but on balance I too agree with BE. Like I said, we wouldn't do it over here - but I'm assuming it happens in some circles in the States, based in what GSCat says.

However I do think that in some cases service dogs, like just like ordinary pet/companion dogs, could utilise the fact that they feel there is some sort of threat present to defend their person on their own initiative. And I do think in a lot of dogs the fact that they have been taught that it IS okay to lay teeth on people / a sleeve, whether that reduction to bite inhibition comes from Sports training, or from PP, means the setting for that training can be laid aside, if a dog is willing to take independant action.

by nicolestone63 on 12 November 2021 - 19:11

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding here; I really would never advocate breeding for service dogs and protection dogs in the same litter or attempting to train a dog for both; that's absolutely unrealistic for 99% of dogs and owners. I do not know of any ADI program or other type of program I have personally interacted with that would advocate for that either, except for one very especially puppy mill/scam SD program preying on veterans and young people that I had an unfortunate lesson with. There is a reason it isn't done, and anyone who is claiming to do so commercially is nearly certainly unethical, especially if the dogs are $$$$$$$.

I appreciate your input especially @hundmutter, although I am unclear on what you mean by "it is about knowing what you're working with"? I agree, that's why I started the thread! I will certianly keep an eye on the classifieds for such, is there a way to set up an automatic ping if a relevant listing is posted? That's a good point I hadn't considered regarding his interactions. He has never had an issue performing obedience or over arousal around a bitch in season or at dog shows besides getting pretty sniffy, he isn't out of control or losing his marbles though. He is capable of focus heeling in a dog park, so I really don't worry about that but AI might be a preferable idea if that is something of a possibility.

@Diamondgal Wish this was the first response!! EXACTLY what I needed; thanks so much!! :) I will study the shit out of that pedigree and probably annoy quite a few people texting them about their dogs lmao.

@rik thanks for the well wishes & advice! :)

I appreciate the well wishes and advice, apologies if I offended anyone or did something wrong, I am super new to all this and just trying to do my due diligence to educate myself and keep an open mind.

by GSCat on 13 November 2021 - 03:11

by Hundmutter on 11 November 2021 - 10:11

"Some service dogs need to be trained for p.p." GSCat -
I'm sure that may be true; however it has not been judged to be necessary here. I was not giving any opinion on that, one way or the other; & we know there are still some differences between the two cultures :-)

I sometimes think there are enough problems with some assorted support dog users (any breed) in getting them to know what they are doing and how best to work in a team with their dog, without adding that sort of extra responsibility !

This is why it takes an exemplary dog with a trained/capable handler for this to occur.  It may be that the handler needs to be experienced, especially with the protection aspect, but I'm not sure about this.



by Baerenfangs Erbe on 12 November 2021 - 10:11

As for Service Dogs and Personal Protection:

No, just no. It is extremely unfair to the dog to expect them to be a personal protection dog and a service dog. It is way too much responsibility and can get the dog shot in situations where the handler needs medical attention and the dog stands over the handler guarding while EMT's can't approach.

Also, per ADA, Service Dogs cannot be Personal Protection Dogs and it's truly unfair to the dogs.
Sport Protection is ritualized training, in a set setting, not generalized to public spaces. Whereas Personal Protection Dogs have to be generalized in all areas, with just enough suspicion to make their own decisions to decide what is and whats not a threat.


A properly trained real protection dog will allow EMS to care for the handler, as will a properly trained medical/psychiatric service dog.  Once upon a time, this argument was used to deny diabetics seeing eye dogs/service dogs.  My Godfather was one of them.  Thankfully, this is no longer the case because seeing eye/service dogs make a huge difference in people's quality of life.

There's a difference between service animals and personal protection dogs.  A dog, which is only a personal protection dog, is not considered a service animal.  However a service animal, which is also a personal protection dog is a service animal.  Under Federal law, even a police K9 or SAR dog is not considered a service animal unless also trained as a medical/psychiatric service animal.

US Department of Justice (USDOJ)  ADA fact sheet about service animals.  Nowhere does it say anything about such dogs not being allowed to be trained to protect.  https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm    ADA FAQ  https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

28 CFR § 35.136 - Service animals  https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/35.136  also says nothing about service animals and protection training.


Back to the topic at hand, it's rare/very unusual that someone, who needs a service dog, also  


a real personal protection dog.  Although this dual need exists in much higher percentages in a couple specific populations than others.


I bought my GSD for law enforcement/handler protection.  My need for real protection did not end when I developed a need for a medical service dog. I was incredibly lucky to have my particular dog because she was able to learn the second role, decision-making framework, and performs the needed tasks seemlessly ❤️


😎  THANK YOU to my breeder for the awesome puppy (now dog) ❤️  Who knew then that I'd need something even more special than we already knew she was 😎



FWIW, if I had to start from scratch to train a GSD for BOTH real protection and medical/psychiatric service, I'd probably look for a well-balanced, clear-headed DDR-type GSD or a well-balanced, clear-headed DDR-type GSD x a little WGWL GSD with a positive OFF SWITCH.  If a puppy, not the most aggressive/active of the litter, but definitely not a timid or fearful one.  I would definitely seek the breeder's advice about which litter and puppy, too, because the breeder's the one that knows all of the puppies, plus at least the bitch(es).

If intended for single-purpose medical/psychiatric use, what I would look for would depend entirely on the tasks the dog would be expected to perform, the intended/likely handler, or type handler and type tasks, and may well be a breed other than GSD.  In any case much lower energy/intensity than the dual-purpose and not civil.

Health checks/background and my vet checking and approving absolute must for any puppy/dog.

All of this to maximize the potential for success and minimize potential for wash-out of dog and/or handler, and avoid issues after placement.



by Hundmutter on 13 November 2021 - 12:11

Nicole, honestly don't think you have made anyone mad at you; we tend to react conservatively on behalf of the breed, and sometimes that comes over as "Just don't do this !" because we see so many people on here who clearly have no thought in their head but $£$£$£$.

Your post is one that has produced one of the wide discussions we love to have !

All I meant by "knowing what you are working with" is that to look at doing something like this, you need the range of information on the dog that it has become clear from your later answers that you do have, perhaps not as clear in your initial enquiry ? Plus the sort of pedigree details I could not help with but Diamondgal now has.

As to whether you can get 'ping d' for pa ticular classifi d * ads, I don't know - I don't think so, but ask the Admins. Frankly I would not be expecting it to happen often, in this case. OTOH it could give you something else to try for yourself later on ?

* Sor y, am having k yboard problems !

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 13 November 2021 - 14:11

Sorry but no we do not ping any member on classifieds or anything else.


by Hundmutter on 14 November 2021 - 03:11

Do you know of any software people could get which can be programmed for 'pinging' ? I've occasonally wondered about such facilities in re a variety of subjects.

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 14 November 2021 - 15:11

No I don't but do know someone I can ask.

by GSDHeritage on 14 November 2021 - 17:11

Hundmutter  you would need to know Programming to use this feature but here is information on it.

"A ping (Packet Internet or Inter-Network Groper) is a basic Internet program that allows a user to test and verify if a particular destination IP address exists and can accept requests in computer network administration."




by Hundmutter on 15 November 2021 - 03:11

Heritage, if a member, or some tech savvy friend of a member, could download such a progam, would that allow for extra notfications to them of posts and classifieds which contain keywords ? & if so, could we assume it would not interfere with PDB ?

by GSDHeritage on 15 November 2021 - 09:11

Hundmutter, Oli does have Security measures in place on the PDB so it should protect the PDB site from this happening.


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