by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 October 2020 - 09:10
Allow me to be more clear, our working ranch dogs do not get cookies when being "trained" either.
They may not get cookies because their reinforcement is different. They still learn the same way though. "What do I have to do in order to get what I want."
Their primary reinforcer is simply a different one but they still have one. This shows, that people don't understand how dogs actually learn, otherwise they wouldn't say stuff like "My dog never gets any cookies."
Lay down, shut up - you get a cookie
Lay down, shut up - you get to chase a ball
Lay down, shut up - you get to drive cattle
Lay down, shut up - you get to walk through this door
Lay down, shut up - you get to use your nose and follow that scent trail (Beagles)
You can use pretty much anything, thats important to the dog, as a primary reinforcer. The more importance it has to the dog, they stronger the reinforcer.
No $hiT your dog isn't getting any cookies, because your dogs primary reinforcer is the action of moving stock, for example!
In Sport we like high food drive dogs because it's easier to condition a dog for the high level of precision with food, and to get more reps in.
I like to train Mobility dogs with food, because, again, it's easier to condition with food and get the reps in.
A Farm Dogs requirements are entirely different from that of a sport dog. Their requirements is to move stock. Moving stock is a strong reinforcer. Go over there, lay down, then you get to move again. Etc.
The goal with anything is that the trained task gets generalized and proofed to the poing that the task itself becomes reinforcing. Like with Athos, picking up anything for me is reinforcing in itself now. I can actually use "retrieving" any type of object as a reinforcer now because the simple interaction between him and me as a SD has become so valuable that it's a reward in itself.
by ValK on 17 October 2020 - 11:10
by Hired Dog on 17 October 2020 - 12:10
A well trained dog will bite anything that is available, but, a well trained lawyer will sue the shit out of the agency employing the dog, the trainer, the handler and anyone else he can to get as much money as possible.
Back in the 80's, I had a dog that loved to bite the back of legs, if you were running and if you faced him, the crotch area. He was a real hit...but, not the dog that was often called to engage anyone.
Today, I have seen some training exercises by the GIGN where the "bad guy" wears a bite suit and a helmet and the handler is actually encouraging the dog to target the face area.
I am not sure how the laws are in the UK, but, here it would be game over that day. Read the article I posted in here somewhere...
by Hired Dog on 17 October 2020 - 12:10
He found him, sitting next to the other suspect who was holding the dog by the collar, I am not sure if he was choking the dog or not, but, the deputy famously yelled, "GET OFF MY DOG BRO"...they even made T shirts with that on it...
by GSCat on 17 October 2020 - 19:10
by Hundmutter on 17 October 2020 - 09:10
Yeah Hired Dog I can see why biting rather than holding would be a practical preference in an American LE situation, of course it would. ValK however was posting about 'embarrassment' with a dog that could not find a piece to latch onto; I was simply musing about the origin of the various exercises devised for (Schutzhund) in earlier times.
Agree on importance of good bite for various reasons/situations.
Sometimes situation changes. Some suspects do stop/give up/comply rather than get bit. Others are stupid and run, hide, etc., and end up getting bit. Training and handler are key to preventing an unnecessary bite. Unnecessary versus necessary dictated by situation, State/local laws (all different), SCOTUS, department policies, etc., etc., etc.
Feel bad for K9 getting called off multiple times in one day when suspects all decide to suddenly get smart and comply/stop after K9 deployed.
by ThatWasClose on 17 October 2020 - 19:10
You are talking about Pasco County FL K9 Shep. Someone even made t-shirts saying "Get off My Dog Bro." There are several videos of Shep's various apprehensions.
by jillmissal on 26 November 2020 - 17:11
by Smokin Joe on 26 November 2020 - 21:11
by Hundmutter on 27 November 2020 - 03:11
Perhaps Jillmissal ought to have said there is nothing actually UNhealthy in a good, well-produced prepared food as compared to raw ? Raw can carry just as many problems (after all, cooked food all starts out raw) and if care isn't taken with storage, balance and preparation, both can turn out 'unhealthy' and cause harm. Not a believer in Raw diets being automatically 'healthier' for dogs (or anyone), any more than I believe one berry is justified in being called a "Superfood" when other fruits provide exactly same vitamin levels !
by Hundmutter on 27 November 2020 - 06:11
Belatedly ... Me too, GSCat, re your last sentence: especially when the dog has always been trained with getting the Bite as its own Reward ! Many e.g. crowd control etc situations must end up with frustrated dogs. ;-D
Hired, ValK: For your interest - Extracted from "Translated version of the work required in Germany of a fully trained protection and police dog:"
(Contribution to Joseph Schwabacher's book [revised 1958 but originating in 1922]. (My notes & comments in italics) I have emboldened the passages I have picked out; the whole 9 pages reproduced from the book would only serve to confuse, given much of the content isn't in any way Hold & Bark related).
"The Revised Regulations Of The German Shepherd Dog Society For German Police Dog Trials"
"Note: Roman Numerals on right-hand side indicate the importance or value attached to correct performance of the exercises and form a guide to the total valuation, eg those marked 'III' are three times the importance of those marked 'I'.
"A Regulations for Tests
1 Obedience Exercises
7 To give voice on command (lying down, sitting, standing and whilst moving)... II
2 Dexterity Exercises (jumping etc)
3 Watch and Guard Duty
3 Giving voice continuously (man protected, dog free) III
4 Nose Work Exercises ...
B Regulations for Preliminary Police Dog Trials
1 Exercises in Obedience
1-8 As under Breed Examinations (Notes on number points follow at end, to flesh out these Regs.).
2 Dexterity Exercises
1-3 As under Breed Examinations requirements (= heights of jumps and climbs)
3 Man Work (Man protected)
1 Searching a tract of land II
2. Giving voice continuously II
3 Seeking for and giving voice at the hiding place or bringing back an object thrown by
the criminal III
...4 Nose work (given importance IV )
C General Regulations for Final Police Dog Tests
1 Exercise in Obedience
Only no. 8 to be judged. Remainder omitted.
2 Dexterity (are entirely omitted)...
3 Work on Man
Numbere 1 - 13 as under regulations for preliminary tests.
4 Nose Work (nothing about barking).
A(1) Notes On Breed Examinations.
...7 To give voice to order - while lying, standing or moving; a single order must be sufficient and the dog should bark continously.
3 Watch & Guard
... 3 Continuously Giving Voice -
This must be executed without help or command and continued until the handler reaches the criminal found by the dog. The character of the dog will be revealed at this time. He must not bite the criminal.
4 Holding Up - Before the handler arrives the criminal tries to escape and the dog must prevent this by continuously running around him and attacking. If the criminal stands still, the dog should at once leave off and bark.
5 Behaviour During Feigned Attack On Handler - This exercise is particularly appropriate for observation if relations between dog and handler, for it is known that a dog devoid of any great amount of intelligence will defend his handler if he is devoted to him. It is quite immaterial which part of the body the dog attacks,( interesting !) so long as he achieves the object, viz disables the person attacking his master.
4 Nose Work (1 to 3, nothing on barking ).
B - Preliminary Police Dog Trials
1 Man Work (Notes on 1 to 13 )
2 Nose Work (Notes 1 & 2)"
There is nothing of further detail about barking in the Notes, except under Nose Work #1, where "Following a half hour old Scent" the dog, when it finds the 'accused' must "sit in front if him and give voice; in no case should he bite the suspect".
Also quite interesting that under Notes 1 on Man Work, under "5 Accompanying Prisoner" it concludes: "His whole attention is devoted to assisting his handler to guard the prisoner and thwart any evil intention of the latter. In no case is the dog allowed to bite the prisoner without cause."
"11 & 12 Steadfastness Under Fire & Blows - The dog should remain steady either at the discharge of a firearm or at a threatened blow. In fact a blow should rouse him to anger. ..."
Now, I fully realise that over the years these Rules have been adapted / truncated / rationalised / made easier on handlers, to take modern situations and training methods into account (remembering that 20's Germany was only about as likely to have criminals reaching for weapons as the UK was, and still more or less is, today (as different from the US ). But my reading of the original German Police Rules as used by the SV has bugger all resemblance to training a dog to 'just' pass Sports tests.