GSD with ulcer or hemorrhagic gastroenteritis (poo pic in post) - Page 3

Goose poop has all kinds of evil stuff in it that could make your dog very sick. Useful info at

http://icwdm.org/handbook/birds/CanadaGeese/humanhealth.aspx

But he still should be scoped and checked for EPI.

He could have EPI, HGE, and sickness from goose poop--all three.

" the vet thought ulcer because he had OCD surgery at 6 months and was put on NSAIDs for a while. He is now 4. So her thought was that resulted in an ulcer. "

If it did it almost certainly would have healed by now. And stomach ulcers don't produce HGE-style bloody diarrhea.

You need to find a vet that knows what they're doing in dealing with GI problems.

 

 

For VK4, and others who believe that a raw meat diet is the best, most perfect diet for dogs. I've said this often, and will say it again: Dogs are NOT WOLVES!  If you want to feed raw, sure, go ahead, but it's not the only way, and as with all home-made diets you've got to be careful it's properly balanced.

Dogs can digest starch and sugar, but the main benefit of the pumpkin is the fiber and its anti-inflammatory properties. It calms the bowel, absorbs water, and helps slow down the diahrrea. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3923564/How-dogs-man-s-best-friend-DNA-study-reveals-evolved-digest-starch-time-humans.html

Very useful info about dietary management of inflammatory GI disease here

http://www.vetfolio.com/nutrition/focus-on-nutrition-dietary-management-of-gastrointestinal-disease-compendium

 

That goose-poop point is interesting - I never thought of this before, but some of our unexplained occasional gastric upsets on the Farm may have been caused by that. We had Domestic geese, which the dogs did not normally have access to 'clean up' after ... but we also had huge flocks of wild Canadas on the fields where the dogs were exercised, and yes some of them did do some 'grazing' of the areas the birds had alighted on.
Thanks JonRob - that might have explained a couple of mysteries, where I knew there had not been a dietary change to cause problems ! Not that if I had known, it could likely have been prevented, but still, interesting.

Hundmutter, glad the goose thing might have cleared up some mysteries. I cannot believe how sick dogs can make themselves by eating the most disgusting things.

To the OP - If money is an issue about getting your dog scoped - specialists aren't cheap - best bet is to find a sensible, practical regular vet who sees a lot of GSDs and has dealt successfully with this kind of stuff before. He/she will likely put your dog on metronidazole (Flagyl), Tylan soluble, and if these don't work, prednisone. Also a novel protein or hydrolyzed protein diet are worth trying although these aren't cheap. The EPI test is very important too. Nothing will work well if your dog has untreated pancreatic insufficiency.

Just an update. We took our dog into the vets last Thursday. They gave him Flagyl, Cernia, fluids under the skin, and sent him home with us. They seemed pretty sure it was not EPI based on his stool but did advise we can do bloodwork in the future if needed. I had called and gotten quotes for scopes in the area but the vet recommended we go the route of more work up first, since in my area scopes are around ~1800+. So if this comes up again we would do some different panels, xrays, and testing then go the route of scope. They advised us to no longer feed him any new treats that we do not know how he will handle, not to change his food if he is doing well on it, and no more low quality treats.

He is no longer vomiting and his poop is getting better, we will have him on a bland diet until he has a few days of regular stool.

Thanks for everyone's input.

"They seemed pretty sure it was not EPI based on his stool"

Vets cannot figure out whether a dog has EPI by looking at his poop.

The EPI test is just under $200 in my area - not cheap but very important to find out whether the dog has EPI or not.

I know a guy whose vet looked at his dog's poop and told him his GSD had a corn allergy not EPI. After his carpets were ruined, his wife was ready to divorce him, and the dog was starting to look like a skeleton, he threw a fit and demanded that the vet do the EPI test. The dog had EPI and it took half a year to stabilize him on pancreatic enzymes because it had been untreated for so long.

This is not a "what the heck we can always do the test later and it won't matter" deal.

If the test shows your dog does not have EPI you did not waste your money. It's important to have that information.

"the vet recommended we go the route of more work up first, since in my area scopes are around ~1800+. So if this comes up again we would do some different panels, xrays, and testing then go the route of scope."

Vets cannot figure out whether a dog has inflammatory GI disease by doing X rays or blood panels. The only thing that benefits from this is the vets bank account.

Your dog really needs a vet who can deal with inflammatory GI disease in a reasonable and practical manner without a scope. The hard part is finding a vet like that. You might try asking some of the better GSD and Collie rescues in your area what vets are good for this. Collies get this too and all too often die from it.

Good luck and I wish you and your dog the best.

Also look into whip worm; very evil devils and really hard to get rid of as well as hard at times to detect. I would give a 5 day treatment of panacur at 5 cc's per 5 lbs of body weight. My first boy had a case of whip and really played havoc for a long time before they were detected. Also clears up giardia/ coccisidious (sp) sorry and other parasites especially after eating the goose poop. Yuck... But they will also eat horse/cow manure which can be loaded with parasites of all types. Yuck...

As far as the EPI tests, you could just start him on enzymes and probiotics instead of testing him now; if you notice him getting better which they will definitely help no matter what is the cause of this upset as well as just make him feel better. Easy to use you just add these items to his food...

Food for thought... NAn

I suppose they get taught to look for 'grey' poop while in vet school, and can't think outside the box. Sad to think of dogs suffering for longer than necessary, just 'cos some vets think they know best. How much more difficult is it to DO another test while they are at it; after all, they'll be expecting the owner to pay for it ...

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-online.com/coccidiosis-in-dogs.html#coccidia-sign

With geese around, I would not disregard the seriousness of coccidia. It IS NOT a simple little issue to take care of IF the coccidia gets implanted into the intestinal tract.

One of the short-falls of fecal flotation (see section 5), the major diagnostic test for coccidiosis, is the issue of 'intermittent coccidia shedders'. These are animalsaffected with coccidia that only release oocysts into their feces every few days or weeks, thereby making coccidia carriers very difficult to detect on a routine faecal float. It is thought that this intermittent shedding occurs as a result of natural ebbs and flows in the animal's immunity. The immune system regularly and periodically (due to physiological stresses, rhythmic hormone shifts etc.)releases some of its control over the coccidia for a brief period of time, long enough for some of thecoccidia to reactivate and make and shed oocysts, but not long enough for clinical signs to appear.





Complications of coccidial infection: secondary bacterial infections.
The coccidial infection strips away the protective epithelial cells lining the intestines and colon, resulting in large ulcers that expose the more-fragile, underlying intestinal tissues.These bleeding ulcers provide a perfect site for the nasty bacteria of the gut (including true nasties like Salmonella, E.coli and Clostridium) tocolonize and the large volumes of inflammatory proteins and secretions within the damaged bowel provide nutrition for the bacteria, allowing their populations to grow quickly. These bacteria are given plenty of opportunity to multiply and increasein number because the damage to the intestine reduces and/or alters its motility, thereby allowing the bacteria to remain and grow in one site rather thanbeing moved on by normal gut motion. Once the bacterial population reaches significant numbers, these secondary bacterial infectionscan start to cause bowel problems of their own. Bacteria release nasty toxins and bowel-damagingchemicals that further injure the intestinal lining, worsen the diarrhea symptoms andmake the animal feel miserable, sick and feverish. Animals with severe secondary bacterialinfection may go off their food and can appear very unwell.

Author's note: These secondary bacteria can often be detected on fecal culture and seen on rectal or faecal swabs. It can be difficult for the vet, when confronted bycoccidia as well as intestinal bacterial pathogens, to know which organismstarted the problem off (which came first). The bacteria could be the primary issueand the coccidia just a secondary organism taking advantage of the bowel injuries to replicate or,alternatively, the coccidia could be primary problem and the bacteria the secondary opportunists.