Is it true? - Page 4

Not pointed... they just needed to have any ribbon...1st, 2nd, 3rd etc in any class... but as white is a disqualification it prohibited whites from showing at the national from that point.

No need for that either.

There were UK parallels with the European situation in
the 70s described by Windwalker ^^^. Which, in fact,
continue into the present.
Some British GSD breeders - a few of them quite successful
& experienced ones - started selling more & more white pups,
often longcoated ones. Some of those found their way into
the origins of the Berger Suisse.
Money was made; often because sellers omitted to tell buyers
that these white GSD pups could not enter Shows; frequently
because they were described as "rare".
Since the priority became maintaining supply of the wanted
colour (with or without black 'points') and coat length, I leave
readers to draw your own conclusions on what that did to
qualities of health and temperament in the stock.

If only these breeders had put as much energy into trying to
persuade the SV to change the Standard in the country
of origin, and give support to a similar change in the UK's
Kennel Club Standard, we might have seen a very different
picture emerge.

**There have been Schutzhund Whites, but seldom. For many years Sport clubs were not willing to accept whites for training and competition.**

True. I was turned away in 2008-2009 because my dogs were white. (they never met the dogs)

Schutzhund: I did a quick look on the FBBSI website. http://www.fbbsi.info/  Although it's just a small glimpse into the BBS breed (not every breeder is a member) it is interesting. The website lists 26 stud dogs. 11 of those stud dogs have Sch/IPO titles. (42% of the dogs listed) So although it's not a requirment for registration some people are doing it. Definitely more popular in FCI countries than here in the US.

**When a White won the GSDCA Obedience Victor the club added that to show in obedience at the national a dog had to get a ribbon at an AKC point show in breed competition. (don't know if that is still true).**

As it stands now dogs with disqualifying faults aren't eligible to compete for this award. Points or ribbons aren't needed from breed competition. The one year they were allowed to compete (2013) a female white GSD "Zephyr's Adelaide Princess" won the award.

**The CKC did allow whites in the show ring at regular shows, and a number of them finished their CKC Championships AS GERMAN SHEPHERDS. (again am not sure of the current status)**

They were disqualified in 1998.

**From what I know the GSDCA won’t “release” control of the white GSD to a different breed club and that’s why the AKC can’t form a different breed in the show ring for them.**

That's correct. Applications for the acceptance of the White Shepherd in the AKC FSS have been put on hold multiple times. The AKC has stated a letter from the GSDCA is required stipulating that they would not oppose the establishment of the new breed. The GSDCA board did vote to write the letter in July of 2011 but held an emergancy meeting in August of that same year and rescinded the vote.

The founders of the breed were correct in rejecting white as an acceptable colour. I haven't met a White Shepherd that I didn't like but every time I have seen them bred to an acceptable color pattern the progeny appeared as if someone bleached the litter.

Markobytes, that is very interesting - have you many cases
in point to recall ? I ask because, apparently, genetically, I
have been told (on here and elsewhere) being a white has
"nothing to do with colour paling". I'd always had the impression
there were more colour-paled dogs in lines known to carry white.
Yet some have pointed out that it is about depth of pigment;
and white, not really being a 'colour' but a 'lack of colour' [and
usually covering darker skin] cannot be affected by the genes
controlling that ???

Unfortunately reading genetic studies at least for me is not only dull but confusing as heck. I'm definitely no expert but the last I knew the recessive gene that causes the white coat is not associated with color paling, those genes are located on different loci. It's possible that a solid white GSD could carry these dilution genes (or modifiers, what ever they're called) but colored GSD can carry the same and not carry the recessive gene for white.

There are multiple articles on the White Shepherd Genetics Project website relating to coat color. Fred Lanting has written about this issue, so did Malcolm Willis among others. If you can read them without your eyes glazing over and falling into a coma, good luck to you. :) In addition color genetic studies are readily available from other studies that have been done but readers should make sure when they do their research they look at studies that apply to the GSD breed.

I've never read an article that says the recessive gene for white brings whatever gene or modifier causes coloring paling along for the ride, but if one exists I would like to see it. If it's true, it's true. Better to know the truth than to guess either way.

zzzz Well I have read just about everything Dr Willis ever wrote :-)
and quite a lot of stuff by Fred Lanting ... but I'm none the wiser on
this one. I take your point whiteshepherds that, presumably, as there
are more similarities than differences between white dogs and coloured
dogs, there are just as many bloodlines / kennel types that contain
paling dogs yet have all coloured stock, we could expect the same
percentage of the breed from white-carrying lines to have paled offspring
completely by chance. But it is just interesting that Markobytes and I
have both got the same impression ? I can remember also doing pedigree
research on a very colour paled bitch for a friend of a friend, and not being
at all surprised to find she had white dogs scattered through her ancestry
even though I hadn't known that to start with.

I know what you're talking about I've seen it too. Having said that, I found an article where F. Lanting theorizes on this topic....Short quote below. I believe colored dogs can have the same alleles at the C locus but can't find the article where I read that at the moment. This article was about the whites.

http://siriusdog.com/mystery-of-the-white-shepherd

"When white GSDs are brought into a colored family line, we frequently see offspring that almost look like “black-and-white” dogs because of sharp contrast between the dark upper parts (such as the saddle and head markings) and the lower markings or underparts that in other dogs are more often some shade of tan or brown—legs, belly, etc. This may hint at yet another chromosome/gene locus that is given the C designation. That is, many white Shepherds may have alleles at the C locus that call for paling pigment."

Some sables can look B&W from a distance - this was
what my late mentor said about looking across the (Nurenberg ?)
stadium the year Timo Berekasten went VA1. LOL

Thanks for locating that Lanting quote. I guess we may find
out more, eventually ...