Is it true? - Page 3

That's just it Koots - modern genetic research apparently
fails to find any difference (other than the obvious colour
alleles) between the gene make-up of white GSDs and
all other GSDs. There are no "genetic flaws associated
with the white colour".

Deafness in white creatures is not all that unusual, and not
always associated with Albinism, but its irrelevant here
anyway 'cos most white GSD are not albinos. As you
say, its quite common in cats. More than dogs.

I haven't ever seen anything that backs up the prejudices
against white GSDs - but I have not seen any that excelled
at e.g. Schutzhund, either (though some such successes have
been reported over the years) Meh ! I think they are just
GSDs and some are good at some tasks better than others ...

So although pre genetics knowledge there could be decisions
based only on prejudice, there would not be any real excuse
not to amend the Standard in favour of allowing white as a
colour, now we know all that !

MY BEEF regarding whites - sorry Whiteshepherds, but you
know this already I think - is not with the dogs, but with the
people who have exploited them.

White Swiss Shepherd Dogs diverged from the GSD and since then the breeders in WSSD have seemed to mostly work towards a more toned down family dog. There's some WSSD owned by sporting dog people and I've seen many well titled in Agility and Obedience among many sports. I think I saw one with 30+ titles at one point. I have yet to see one well titled in bitework but I have found that due the fact they are mostly pets that hardcore bitework people tend to stay away.

I personally know a person who owns two WSSD and dabbles in bitework with her bitch. She now has a male too, but I haven't been in contact with her in awhile.

Some are more or less doing well in IPO over here, but the % is more than low.
Some breeders try to breed good working dogs, but the gene pool of titled/proofed dogs is pretty small.

It´s always about selection. As soon as there are no breeding requirements a breed as a whole will loose its working ability step by step.
When the "Berger Suisse" was reintroduced to Germany in the 70s/80s, the dogs weren´t selected for working ability for almost 50 years, that´s more or less 16 generations of dogs...

Susie I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative, I just want to make a point.

I know it's hard to make the distinction because of their beginnings but the Berger Blanc Suisse are no longer considered German Shepherd Dogs and aren't expected to behave like them.

Schutzhund/IPO was designed specifically to tests the traits of the GSD. Correct? Other dogs can do it, but no one expects them to do it in great numbers or excel in the process except in rare cases. When they do excel it's pretty cool but again, it's not expected or required.

The burden of proof as it pertains to whether or not a white has the traits of a good GSD falls on the shoulders of people who claim first and foremost that their whites are GSD's and second, are as good and no different than a working colored GSD. At least that's how I see it. The BBS make no such claim. Different breed, different expectations.

Here's a portion of the BBS breed standard as it pertains to behavior/temperament. They're pretty vague about what they mean when they say working/sporting dog. Very different from the FCI GSD standard.

BEHAVIOUR/TEMPERAMENT
Lively and balanced temperament, enjoys action, attentive with good ability to be trained. Friendly and discreet. High social competence and devoted to his owner. Never fraid or aggressive without provocation. A joyful and easy to teach working and sporting dog with capability for all round education. High social competence allows for a marked ability to adapt and integrate to all kinds of social events and situations.

Oh, I think that "vague" description was written quite
deliberately !

Whiteshep, I was around when the whites came back.
The breeders / owners of these dogs fought for endless years trying to get them acknowledged as "German Shepherd dogs" - after a while they were named American Canadian Shepherds ( AC sheps ), later on Berger Suisse. And all the time these people declared they are "purebred" German Shepherds without any outcross...

I never understood why the lovers of these dogs insisted that intensely on the German Shepherd dog heritage, but didn´t care about the character and temperament the German Shepherd dog stands for.

No matter the breed some pet-focused breeders will take it and try to tone it down from the original character and temperament so it is more suited. In Aussies, pet breeders are trying to remove the herding instinct and make a mellow dog with no herding instinct. This is sort of, "pet breeding" is obviously not limited to these two breeds, so maybe we could generalize it?

Certain breeds are known for certain, "good" traits. In GSD this is often confidence, intelligence, and protective instinct. However, over time it's become taboo to let a dog bite someone (even if defense) and leash laws mean that we can't let dogs roam like they used to. This mean more work for humans, which over time have become lazier. I hate to say it but most typical owners have little idea what they are doing. The majority are morons who own a dog and barely walk it. People who really care about those breed traits, want them, and are dedicated enough to actually put in the effort are the minority in general.

So what I'm saying, is from a marketing standpoint, toned down version of already existing breeds is a large market. Pet breeders use the breed name as a premise that the dog will protect you (false), which is only really true with good genetics and upbringing. A lot of people highly doubt many untrained dogs would actually protect, "their person" if they weren't on leash. Sometimes some trainers make me feel like the dog attacked only because it felt like it had to due to forced proximity (leash), defending itself, not the person.

But pet owners don't know this, they'd always been told the "good" about a breed and think it comes with the breed all the time. Just some thoughts.

Susie - Yes originally they wanted to get the whites back into the breed. You'd have to know the breeders in Europe from that era and ask them what their thought process was.  Did they believe their dogs were good examples of the GSD? Honestly, I don't know.  A lot of years passed between the time Lobo was sent to Europe and the BBS was recognized. I'm sure thoughts changed over the years for various reasons and eventually they went for new breed status.

Outcrossing to another breed could have jepordized the possibility of the SV ever letting them back into the breed. That could explain why no other breeds were introduced. By the time they decided to go for new breed status they had no reason to outcross, they liked the direction their breed was taking.

Hund,  no need to apologize to me for the exploitation comment, I don't want to see the dogs exploited either. :)

 

 

 

Back in the 70's Teri Scofield and Joanne Chanyi each exported several dogs to Belgium and Germany. The folks who purchased them were German Shepherd oriented, but couldn't purchase registered German Shepherds that were White and registered with the SV, the progeny could not be registered there, so they bought CKC and AKC young dogs and began raising White German Shepherds in Europe. Two or 3 kennels were established there, but limited breeding was done.
Pass a couple of decades, further exports were made, again from Joanne, and from Ronda Beaupre and a couple of other breeders in Canada and Michigan areas. These two series of exports formed the basis for the Swiss Berger in Europe. One difference immediately noticed was MANY long coated dogs being bred, where as at that time the feeling in the US/Canada was to only breed and show short coated dogs.
I lost touch with the process for many years, and don't have the specifics on the establishment of the Swiss breed. I know that many many dogs were exported from the US and Canada before the breed book closed, and that for that period many were registered both as German Shepherds and duel reg. as Swiss Berger. When the stud book closed breeders had to choose which registration to accept for their dogs. The point valid that almost all involved in this process were NOT involved in any way in IPO or SchH competition. Basic obedience, tracking, even some involved with herding, but the focus of the breed did change. In fairness however back in the 70's/80's the sport of Schutzhund/IPO was not well established in the US as it is today.
There have been Schutzhund Whites, but seldom. For many years Sport clubs were not willing to accept whites for training and competition. When a White won the GSDCA Obedience Victor the club added that to show in obedience at the national a dog had to get a ribbon at an AKC point show in breed competition. (don't know if that is still true).
My personal preference would have been that the disqualification for white color be dropped, and that whites would be shown on same scale as colored dogs... or that a separate variety be allowed where whites competed against other whites, and 2 GSD's would be in the Herding Group. The CKC did allow whites in the show ring at regular shows, and a number of them finished their CKC Championships AS GERMAN SHEPHERDS. (again am not sure of the current status)

From what I know the GSDCA won’t “release” control of the white GSD to a different breed club and that’s why the AKC can’t form a different breed in the show ring for them.

Due to the lack of dogs being worked, and the small population of dogs to begin with, I don’t expect them to have the same working ability as a regular GSD. It’s almost pointless to compare the two or expect whites to be somewhere near the WL GSD ability. There just aren’t enough of them to begin with and even less that are trained in any sort of working venue. Since crossing of whites and regulars is frowned upon this will probably never get better and as a GSD person I barely consider them GSD. I think the best thing for white shepherds and the people that love them is to have their own breed, truly not allow crossing of pedigrees with regular GSD, and allow for an establishment of a different breed standard.

And no...you don't need to be pointed in the conformation ring to show in the performance events at the national.