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by Jim Engel on 23 December 2014 - 20:12
Herman Martin sold his soul for silver, power and false prestigue.
Edited by Western Rider
by vk4gsd on 23 December 2014 - 21:12
seems like this martin guy is just being used as a scape-goat and a platform.
where were all the righteous ones when said practices was going down?
what are you doing about it (improving the breed) now?
do people plan on revoking old titles, ammending the alleged false pedigrees, LMAO, all anyone is gonna do is parade on the internet.
by Hundmutter on 23 December 2014 - 22:12
Hey, I thought it could not be long before Jim Engel put in his 2 cents - I
agree with Kevin, there are rational criticisms ... and then there are
daft insults for the sake of being insulting.
I continue to agree with Susie in all this; I feel her last couple of posts say
it all. Better than I have. And now Ibrahim, and even vk too, are making sensible
points on those lines.
But I would add one thing: during the 80s, the German and 'germanic'
dogs of both Show and Working types did not have the extreme conformation
issues we are looking at in SOME of today's dogs. Certainly there were increasing
numbers of flashy black and red colouring, and a corresponding decrease in the
greys and all-blacks, that had already become much less numerous during prior years;
and there were issues being noted and discussed among the UK shepherdites
about the way working testing was done for the German Sieger show (as distinct
from Landsgruppe trials for purposes of sports competition, getting the SchH grades,
etc), that may or may not have indicated a decrease of athleticism and ability in physically
popular dogs going for a V / VA rating [but training and handling factor-in as well as the
structural things about a dog]; and yes the topline and the rear angulation were already
changing ... but they were not AT THAT TIME resulting in the extremes of 'hingeing'
and 'hockwalking' presenting themselves now. And anyway the worst of those traits
seem to me to be coming from places like Croatia, and from newer show/pet breeders, not
from the established 'West' German kennels. All in all, the idea that JUST Herman Martin
was at fault, or that what he did should all be 'undone' (as if that were possible) is ludicrous,
because he might have been a skilled breeder, and he might or might not have been a
crook - but he did not own a crystal ball, so he could only partly predict where the breed
was going to end up in 3 decades ! And he could only ' control ' so much of the wider
breeding picture.
There are far too many "might haves" associated with the criticisms about particular
matings and litters. And gawd knows we have had enough OTHER examples of those
fraudulent things being done by others in the breed. ( Remember Malcolm Griffiths,
anyone ?) . Which, again, makes it absolutely fruitless to try and blame everything you don't
like about the breed currently on one man.
by susie on 23 December 2014 - 23:12
Back on track, Mr Engel?
Always nice to read you...
I think we should stop this thread now, at least I do.
Merry Christmas to all open minded people on the world !
by Mackenzie on 24 December 2014 - 06:12
I agree with Susie, this post has now run it''s course. Many thanks to everyone whose has taken part.
A very happy Christmas and Best Wishes for 2015
Mackenzie
by Gustav on 24 December 2014 - 11:12
I think that many of us acknowledged that Mr Martin or the Martin brothers were not the SOLE reason for the split or the institution of the black and red SL with the correlating decline in working ability. But this man and his brother did wield immense power and influence in Germany over the breed during a significant period of time in which these developments were cemented. I would think that is factual. If we " objectively" discuss the legacy of this man in relation to his impact to the breed, then I fail to see how we can come to a conclusion that his legacy was superlative as a breeder or leader, unless you are one who feels that the state of the GSL overall is healthy and representative of the legacy of this breed in its greatness.
i honestly cannot reconcile the narrative( especially in hindsight and we fortunately have that right now) that with the fore mentioned issues that grew and expanded under his leadership, we continually insert a " BUT" to then say his legacy was overall positive. I personally feel this is the kind of rationalization that have allowed the situation for this segment of the breed to have continued long after his exit. This doesn't make him a bad man, or a breeder who who had it all wrong, but imo, his leadership for the breed( in the capacity he was in) overall was a failed one. This is my honest opinion or answer to your question Mac, without allowing what I like or have bred enter into my thinking.
I personally "like" the Black and Tan/Red color as my favorite color, and owned such many many years ago when the inside matched the outside. But I cannot let my likes support the type and direction of the breed that has changed the breed so drastically.....So it is difficult for me to feel his legacy was overall positive.....no buts included.
Btw folks, Since I will be going back to primarily reading, I wish everyone very Happy Holidays and great health for the new year!
by Mackenzie on 24 December 2014 - 13:12
I would like to thank Gustav for taking part in this thread with such reasoned comments. We need more like him of this PDB.
Gustav’s last post shows that he has arrived at his conclusion in a reasonable and measured way which echo’s my own thoughts exactly.
I think that of the two Walther Martin was the better breeder. These two men were the nucleous of the manipulations during the Presidency of Hermann Martin. Unfortunately we may never know the identity of all those who were in that Magic Circle and enjoying the benefits bestowed upon them.
The only regret that I have in starting this thread is that when I look at the number of viewings the discussion was left to so few. Many more may have agreed worldwide but drew back from joining because of the spoilers that post absolute rubbish and carry out their own personal vendetta’s against fellow posters. If we use this PDB properly then the valuable information that we can obtain here and, with discussion from worthwhile open minded people I feel that the German Shepherd Dog will rise again from the depths that it has fallen to.
Happy Christmas everyone and all the best for 2015.
Mackenzie
by Sunsilver on 24 December 2014 - 14:12
Mackenzie, one of the reasons I didn't initially take part in this thread was because it's a topic that's been discussed numerous times. After awhile, you see something like this, and think "What can they possibly say that hasn't been said already on this topic?"
And yes, I knew it probably was going to 'go south' at some point, and even had a pretty good idea of who would be the posters to cause it to go in that direction!
by Mackenzie on 24 December 2014 - 16:12
Sunsilver - I am sure that you have heard much on the topic in this post, however,are you forgetting about the newcomers since this topic was last raised? Surely this section of newcomers should not be denied this information just because it has been discussed before. Historically many dogs of Hermann Martin,s success were awarded by himself, also, he awarded a great deal of success to his brother.
Mackenzie
by Ibrahim on 24 December 2014 - 16:12
Well said Mac. new comers deserve some education, me included
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