The legacy of Herr Herman Martin - was it for the better or worse for the GSD - Page 7

Hi Susie

I remeber those time too and like you I am shaky on the dates, it does come sooner or later but not quickly.

I went to the Sieger in 1982 and I wanted to sepecifically look at the Vice Sieger from the year before.  His name is Carlo v Abtei Werden.  I was so disappointed he ran to the helper on the distance attack and before he took a bite he ran all the way back to the start.  The crowd were booing.  It was awful to see.

Mackenzie

Carlo was a guest in the club I used to train at that time... no reason to talk about this dog.

Which Canto?  Arminius or Overledinger Land

Mackenzie

Sorry, I just edited CARLO
In this club the helper tried to train him for the Siegershow.

I agree with you - nothing to say about him

Mackenzie

I agree 100% with Suzie,there were in 70s and 80s lots of top placed dogs with very weak bite work and that did not discourage lots of breeders to breed to those dogs,because they wanted the angulation,color,bones,movement, head,and other features,at the same time they were loosing the temperament.When you look at some top VA dogs right now is the same story,lots of breedrs go for the same,not paying any attention to temperament.My peronal preference is to breed to dog with sound,confidence temperament,i don't care if the dog place 30th or lower at BSZS,i would still rather breed to him instead to VA dog with weak temperament. Many good breaders in Germany do the same think they give the priority to dogs with good temperament and the conformation goes second,and never mind how the dog places on BSZS.Looking even now on show line dogs in USA,i can tell from my observation that the quality and temperament of show line German bred dogs is much better than was 10 years ago,most dogs past the courage test,and really do good bite work,at the same time they remain excellent conformation.

Susie, I am aware that no one man caused this phenomena, and the trend started before the Martins. But with the Martins regime, the systematic elimination of any of Marko/Frei/Busecker-Schloss dogs were pretty much cemented. Also, the reduction of Mutz as the late eighties and nineties advanced seemed to correlate with the trendy Black and Red type that you would not see if you infused as much Mutz blood as Canto/Quanto. Yet all knew Mutz propagated much better work ethic, as did Marko. I understand the quest for the powerful gait and shoulders/upper arms besides the heads and color that they were seeking. Mutz tended to produce smaller males than the direction they wanted to go, but many were absolutely correct size. 

Anyway, I agree that no single person did this, but the Martins had an inordinate amount of influence through position and reputation to carry the breed to where we are today,imo.

That´s something I can agree with, although the "extinction" of the Mutz -line was based on the fact that the breeders were not interested in this line out of several reasons.
Mutz - Jonny - Jupp - Pütz - Karo . H. Martin rated Pütz and Karo VA five times...there was not that much Mutz offspring around during his time any more.

H. Martin definitely had a lot of influence, but at the end of the day the breeders decide about the stud and the dam.

For Mac: I remember now that they started to write down "Lässt ab / Lässt nicht ab" somewhen between 1983 and 1984.
This was a big step for the SV ( made during the legacy of H. Martin ).
I still don´t remember when the dogs had to "out" for breed survey / Siegershow.

In the mid seventies, I had a female whose dam line was:  mother was out of a Kirschental daughter out of Canto bred to Bernd v Lierberg. So I'm not anti Canto when he was bred responsibly.....this female had super structure and fabulous temperament. I bred her to a V rated Enno v Aftreftal son. All these dogs were solid V rated dogs, with Canto, Bernd being highly rated in structure and Enno was son of VA Frei v d Gugge......yet I did not compromise work ethic whatsoever. People can't tell me the breed can't have both....I haved lived better.

".....yet I did not compromise work ethic whatsoever. People can't tell me the breed can't have both....I haved lived better."
That´s what it´s all about.

The responsibility for our breed lies in the hands of the breeders, finally they decide about the next generation, nobody else.
They have to decide, if their bitch or their stud really is "breedworthy", even after the dog is titled, show rated, breed surveyed, health tested...

In a perfect world no breeder would use a dog with temperament issues, but in reality both showline- and workingline breeders tend to wear their colored glasses as soon as their own dogs are involved.

I´m no breeder, so I can only guess it´s about money, vanity, recognition, followed by kennel blindness and simple lack of knowledge.