The legacy of Herr Herman Martin - was it for the better or worse for the GSD - Page 6

Understanding how the breed has evolved to where it is today is very important information IMO. However, a bigger concern for me is that many breeders don't seem to recognize what needs to change. 

Gustav, I normally don´t care, but due to a cold ( sitting at home ) I took a close look at the former VA´s - only from 1967 - 1973, cause I´m too lazy for longer research.

President Funk ( 1956 - 1971 )
President Rummel ( 1971 - 1982 )

VA - males ( one picture missing in 1969 )
Based on PDB - in case there are any mistakes, please forgive me...

I really don´t think Hermann Martin was the man who "eliminated" the colors, once again, I´m not his fan, but we shouldn´t change history ....
There were and still are a lot of other people involved...

In case anybody really is interested in the development of the colors, he may research more years, and not only the VA dogs.
Might be interesting...I´d appreciate it.

My guess ( and it´s a guess only ) = a big difference between the time before WW II and the time between 1945 and today.
I think black and tan became more and more, bicolor, sable, and black almost vanished during the seventees.
And I´m pretty sure that during the last 8 (?) years these colors became MORE again.
Why? SV started to honor good bitework officially.

Which SV president was it that told Koos Hassing (Tiekerhook) that a sable dog was not going to get a VA rating as long as he was president?

Now that I have a black GSD puppy, I am encountering what those who don't have black and tan dogs have encountered for years. People don't even realize it's a GSD. They think it's either a black lab (her ears aren't fully up yet) or a mix!

Forgot to mention: Hermann Martin became breedwarden of SV in 1974, he was president from 82-94.
That´s why I showed the years 1967 - 1973.
During the years 1967-1973 he had absolutely no influence in any decisions made, I even doubt his influence at least on the males till 1982.

Gustav is 100% correct in his post. I have made similar comments and I suspect that there are many others who share this view who would possibly like to engage were it not for the spoilers and their worthless comments.

When Herr Martin decided that grey dogs, bi-colours and blacks should go Alfred Hahn, a very good breeder in his day and a member of the Breeding Committee, discussed the issue with Herr Martin. Herr Hahn appreciated what the dogs of these colours bought to the breed. The result of the difference was that Herr Hahn was very quickly off of the Breeding Committee. I spoke with a Koermeister about this and why it happened and, his reply surprised me, all that he said was “we have no grey dogs”.

I can only remember two grey dogs getting a high place under Hermann Martin. One was a VA male later disqualified from the VA Status and the other was Joker v Arlett V17.

I think that the Judge of the Male class should try to open the gene pool by including more dogs from the working side regardless of colour. Some of these dogs, although not VA quality, are anatomically good enough to make better places than they do. The judge should also comment on why these dogs are getting a better position. Reasons like his progeny maintain anatomically good standards, strength and quality of character in themselves and their progeny, soundness and working qualities instead of trotting out more or less what is in the Koer Report. Make the breeders more aware that if a dog is of good enough quality they will not be cast aside because they come from working stock and colour.

Mackenzie

I mentioned Joker v Arlett in my last post.  His sire is Uran v Wildsteiger Land and his mother is Katze v d Wienerau Hermann Martin's brothers breeding.

Mackenzie

Mac: I think that the Judge of the Male class should try to open the gene pool by including more dogs from the working side regardless of colour. Some of these dogs, although not VA quality, are anatomically good enough to make better places than they do. The judge should also comment on why these dogs are getting a better position. Reasons like his progeny maintain anatomically good standards, strength and quality of character in themselves and their progeny, soundness and working qualities instead of trotting out more or less what is in the Koer Report. Make the breeders more aware that if a dog is of good enough quality they will not be cast aside because they come from working stock and colour.

You are absolutely right! No question!

I am only against finger-pointing on ONE guy.
The discrimination of colors was current method BEFORE H. Martin and it was current method AFTER H. Martin.''
Breeders BEFORE and AFTER H. Martin bred dogs without proper temperament.

I used to hang around the bitework ring of the Siegershow for years/decades.
1000s of people watched the bitework, all of them saw the good ones and the bad ones in person.
You know what? They didn´t care, but used the weak males for breeding later on...

TODAY people are able to see this event live or via internet as a life-stream, so 1000s of 1000s of people on the whole world are able to see the dogs-
THEY STILL DON´T CARE.

 Hi Susie. Glad you are still posting. Wir können auf Deutsch sprechen, wenn Sie das Gefühl, dass es besser für Sie

Like you I do not like to point the finger at one guy.  Also I do not think that the changes that were so obvious under Hermann Martin could have happened without the trust of a very few people around him.  Othe people had to be involved and those people could not have achieved what they did consistently without Hermann Martin.

I agree with you regarding the bitework and you are right.  The reason behind this is that It has become more acceptable than in the past. 

Mackenzie

" I agree with you regarding the bitework and you are right.  The reason behind this is that It has become more acceptable than in the past. "

This was also BEFORE H. Martin. Do you remember the time when on breed survey and Siegershow the dogs only needed to bite "somehow" ?
NO OUT was required... The seventees might have been the worst time.
A lot of dogs didn´t out, cause as long as they were hanging at the sleeve they didn´t run away, or, worse, they learned forced bitework, in this case no out at all...

I don´t remember the exact date when SV changed the rules. At first they simply wrote down "Lässt ab / Lässt nicht ab", later on the dogs had to out.
It´s a shame I don´t remember the dates.