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by vk4gsd on 21 December 2014 - 04:12
"This thread has value I think, but these sorts of subjects always lead to workingline people never missing the opportunity to dump on showlines. Bulletin......neither are in great shape."
consult yr friend max, i think he mentioned the breed is a working dog, where did you get this show-line idea from?
by Gustav on 21 December 2014 - 04:12
Mac, though this subject has importance, especially for prospective breeders, this forum is no longer able to have serious discourse on the ills of this breed. Between those that are hyper critical and those that think any criticism ( regardless of merit) is an agenda of bashing....the days of serious dialogue for informational purposes does not exist except for reporting good things about the breed. I applaud your attempt, but I think it is rather futile.
by Western Rider on 21 December 2014 - 04:12
Would it be possible for everyone/anyone to ignore any word, comment, sentence or paragraph that they don't like or they think it an attack on them.
If you show others that you are strong enough to handle it and ignore them it would make for a lot less of this, shall we be polite and say, youthful back and forth of who is bigger and badder.
All that comes from the crap talk is that we will now have a rash of abuse button hits and then the talk goes to we want another person banned.
How many people do we want to ban instead of just ignoring a post and not take it so personal. The last big topic that went several pages was I think what color is my dog or some such.
A lot of people have been banned many because they hurt the feeling of another who just could not ignore the remark/s and then the pissing contests is on.
Why can't we have a discussion where people can disagree and not be put down for their thoughts. It really does take all kinds and ideas to make this world. And if someone just must show the rest of us how young they are and poorly raised they are, feel sorry for them and ignore them don't join them in their social circle.
by Mackenzie on 21 December 2014 - 06:12
As far as I am concerned this thread is no longer of any interest. I,m done.
Mackenzie
by Hundmutter on 21 December 2014 - 08:12
Gustav, what possible use is it to go on debating whether or not Herman Martin was
the 'devil incarnate' for the breed ? It is what it is.
Funk and Rummel both made their share of naff decisions, too; there have been
bottlenecks before and since the 80s; I am pretty sure nobody in either Show or
Work camp would wish a return to the long, low dogs of the late 30s and 40s, that
period certainly signified lasting problems even into the 70s and 80s for GSD
enthusiasts in the UK, as it gave rise to the 'British Alsatian' type so beloved of the
Kennel Club and those who no longer wanted a truly work-enabled dog, or cared
a fig about nerve and temperament.
by Mackenzie on 21 December 2014 - 09:12
For Hundemutter and all the others who have been in the breed for many years this thread is about things they have some knowledge on. Those people forget that year on year there are many newcomers to the breed who are absolutely in the dark about the breed, therefore, to bring this to the fore again is something that having discovered the true background may influence newbies in finding the right type of dog to start with. It is as sure as night follows day that no breeder is going to tell them.
Something else to remember is that when newcomers come to the breed and see dogs winning and they take that as being correct and that is the standard they will eventually breed to. These are the people who will eventually take the breed forward. We have seen this often enough with roachbacks, unsoundness, size etc. It is the hidden things that are important and not seen e,g, epilepsy, CDRM, Dysplasia,and more. It is this type of discussion that will highlight people with 40 years in the breed but only 1 year experience 40 times.
It is also important to understand that there are some working dogs who anatomically are very good and could be used in a breeding programme to outcross from where we stand now.
This definitely is my last word.
Mackenzie
by BlackMalinois on 21 December 2014 - 12:12
This are the real deal GSD not what you see today.
by Blitzen on 21 December 2014 - 12:12
It's not about only saying good things about the breed, being overly sensitive or taking things personally. It's about showing some respect for other posters and not interrupting every single thread generated here with smart ass remarks by the same old.
by Blitzen on 21 December 2014 - 12:12
so basically herr martin was the right man installed for the job at the right time, harvesting the breed.
sounds like martin was as pathetic as that pimp von stepha-theif, both were crap breeders, crap trainers, crap handlers, social climbers and would sell their own grandmothers if the price was right.... and both great at marketting with no conscience and and to heck with the breed.
these pschopaths are created by the people that put them there and keep them there....and they will always be there.
same story with the livestock guardian breeds, dogo's, pitts, presa's, dobes.....you name the commodity, if there is an easy buck to turn, there is a martin, von steph...etc.
so as far as the op it is the same answer to everything, better for some, worse for others.
Please point out to me the value in the contents of this post. What is the intent other than to inflame? Harvesting the breed? stepha-thief ....Pathetic....pimp....crap breeder....crap trainers.social climbers, sell their own grandmothers........pschopaths.
by Hundmutter on 21 December 2014 - 12:12
BlackMal, all breeds change and develop, over decades - some of them for better,
some for worse, some vary a lot but without it making a practical difference !
Yes: those photos show typical early GSDs, as the breed first evolved when it
became a Breed rather than a motley collection of shepherding and guarding
types without a Stud Book. But the breed did not stop with them, it wasn't preserved
'in aspic' at the turn of the 19th Century, the end of the first decade of the 20th Century,
the end of the second decade, the end of the third, or of the fourth ... Change happens.
Yes: that is a result of breeding decisions, and of fashionable (saleable) trends; and those
depend on the animals selected for breeding by those who are regarded as the "guardians"
of that breed. And to some extent on sidelines created by others who deliberately use those
dogs deliberately NOT selected by those who are in charge - dog breeding is a very fluid
business, open to personal preferences, even in Germany where they have more rules about
the breeding of the GSD than the rest of us ! Some of those changes were - and some
continue to be - regarded by different groups of afficianados amongst all disciplines in the breed as
necessary or helpful for their own particular activities. Some directly clash, because they are more
useful and/or likeable to one lot of owners than they are to others. Actually NONE is so extreme as
to really result in a series of entirely different breeds, however much some people like to
exagerate the differences and what they see as failings. There are still many litters of GSD
pups born in which different pups grow up with different temperaments, strengths and skills.
And shapes.
While the OP poses the idea that we need to look closely at the decisions taken by people of
importance in the breed some decades ago to see what they did right or wrong, resulting in
where GSDs are 'at' currently, I have no disagreement with that in principle - although I do
wonder, Mack, why that applies more to newbies than those of us who have been around
the block ? - but as others have said, we can't exactly 'undo' what they did; we can only
strive to take what we think is good and correct and fit for purpose NOW and breed on with
that / those dogs. Assuming we can agree what we think IS right. (Won't happen. 
)
If people think the breed cannot be rescued, they don't have to be loyal to it - let them go
off and select another breed/s that they DO consider suitable for whatever they want to do with it.
Amateur meddling in breeding won't help the situation - those who breed should serve their time
and do their research FIRST. The other thing that does not help anyone is exactly the sort of
bitch-fest that, again as others have noted, ALWAYS treat questions / posts like Mackenzie's
as a hook on which one 'side' slings hate at the other. Does not achieve change, or co-operative
efforts to improve the GSD, it just results in people going off in a huff; what good is that ?
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