IPO 2050 .. What Must Change ..Tracking - Page 11

awww, I"m not ashamed, and I think your opinions of your facts suck, so there :)


you could have saved yourself a lot of time.  You could have just said, "no deal" LOL

I don't ignore any part of my sport, don't put words in my mouth to further your agenda.  Now I'll sit back and let you pontificate, it's apparently what you're put here to do :)

I do not accept yr apology, i want home made brownies and hot cakes as compensation for the hurt you have caused me.

@zdog, what "agenda" do you think I am trying to further, by channeling your spite on a web forum?  I can't say "no deal" when part of your deal involves the following inaccurate accusation: "STFU about things you don't even do"

To clarify for the umpteenth time, I most certainly do participate in your venue.

@vk4gsd, will you accept virtual brownie's instead?

Close enough, we're good.


:-)

channeling my spite :)  That's rich coming from you LOL

Wow just a quick read through this thread was revealing.  The nonsensical excuses and essays people will come up with to avoid footstep tracking..LOL.  Makes you wonder why some people even own dogs since it sounds like its hard for them to even walk them legally anymore...ROFL.

@Haz, I'm no fan of foot scenting.  My thought is, if you want to do deep nose, foot scening and have the dog doing very little thinking on its own, get a Blood Hound, because they can do it "new" out of the box.  Also, in IPO tracking, the pickup indication process between articles is pretty ludicrous, but thats really besides the main point here.

Now to address your claim that people do not want to train for foot scenting.  I am nearly certain that dislike for foot scenting is at BEST a secondary issue that makes people dislike IPO tracking.  Why?  You can do OB in your yard or in just about any available secluded area, even on concrete/asphalt if you absolutely must.  Protection too, can be taught, in pieces, in smaller areas.  You'll certainly need to go to your IPO club to string it all together, so the dog gets the concept, BUT you can compartmentalize this training, making some compromises, while still getting most of what you want out of the dog.

Tracking on the other hand, eventually requires the dog to have a certain degree of mental stamina to work all 400-1000 meters.  Depending on the tracking training methods that the IPO clubs are showing people, I would surmise most people using those techniques taught assume that they EVENTUALLY need a large area to practice tracking in.  So, when they don't have the space available, they delay tracking training and some eventually begin to despise it because of geographical inconveniences and a lack of opportunity to reinforce successful titling behavior in the dog.  What I have described above, is exactly why IPO folks are trying to practice with our AKC group.  They see us using long lines, having lots of room to train, a predictable training schedule and viable progress in the dogs tracking ability.  They don't see these things happening at their own clubs, SPECIFICALLY, in regards to the IPO portion of tracking and frankly geography and MATH, give the complete explanation.

Now for the math reality of it all, which Haz has identified as "nonsensical excuses".  How much space does one need to lay an IPO compliant track to practice on? Assuming of course, a persons dog has built up to working that length of track.  Lets say 1 Pace = 0.762 meters.  This means a typical IPO-1 track will need two turns, two 120 paces legs and one alternate 120 pace final leg.  Adding it all up means that each leg is 91.44 meters long.  If all your tracks are U-shaped, with all right or all left turns and aged for a short period of time with no-cross tracks, you'll need about two, side-by-side, "american football" fields to lay a proper IPO-1 track to practice on.  In IPO-2 you'll need 158.4 meters per leg and in IPO-3 you'll need 190.5 meters for the FIRST LEG!  To make matters worse, all of the above needs to be on natural or vegetated surfaces.

And you wonder why people don't like to train for IPO tracking?  In contrast the Stoberprufung, Random Search Test (STp), needs 20x30 meters for the STp-1, 20x40 meters for the STp-2 and 30x50 meters for the STp-3.  Basically any local park can be used to train for it because space is not the limiting factor, practicing is.  Why do you think the AKC introduced the Tracking Dog Urban (TDU) title?  So people could create football field sized tracks on WHATEVER surface was available locally. 

You mean to tell me NONE of you see the idiocy in all this?  There's really is not enough space to train the dogs in IPO style tracking to begin with, then combine it with limited geographical access to IPO clubs and as I said a mini-crisis begins to emerge.  You guys should be looking for ways to SOLVE this problem rather than blame the participants.

LOL!!!  IPO group track with AKC group????  LOL!  Why? 

You track because IPO IS A BREED TEST.  It tests the TEAM.  It says that IF a dog can do such RIDGID demanding (yes OB) absolutely meticulous tracking and this can be learned by the dog, it can absolutely transition to a more "free" for of combination air/ground scenting, or its progenies will have the propensity genetically to.

There must be a certain harmony in tracking.  An understanding to track well.  One.  You can NEVER give up.  Two And as long as you keep trying, all is good.  And trust. It's about pace, intensity, focus and teamwork.  THIS is why you do IPO track.  It is hard and incredibly hard to learn and manage.  

It is not about how the track is done.  It is WHY.  Can the DOG to it?  Can the TEAM do it?  Can the HANDLER do it?  Most dogs can.  Most handlers cannot.

tracking is humbling.  In the end, only the dog knows the track.  In the end, you only have your dog to trust that he is on track.  

Lance Collins, my training director said "all dogs are tracking geniuses.  The biggest problem is handlers teach dogs NOT to track."  So, very true.

 

 

Peter, you are either new at this or you are trying to impress someone. Why must the track be done in such a fashion as to be useless for real world applications?

The way its done now, its not only useless, it strictly shows the handler's training skills, not the dog's. We are not going to discuss about building/training bad habits into a dog to the point of making it useless for any further transitioning to real tracking and yes, I have seen many of them not able to do it.

You never give up? As long as you are trying all is good? What if you are trying really hard and you are doing it wrong, does that matter or as long as you dont give up, its fine? Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice does.

Its not about how the track is done? Do they score you on why or on how well your dog vacuums the plowed field? If its not about how, why wont they accept a track done police dog style?

ALL search work is humbling, it has nothing to do with a dog tracking vacuum style and I stand in awe every time my dog makes a find at work, still, 36 years later.

Finally Peter, all dogs know every single thing arrogant humans think they teach them...think about it, a dog knows how to lay down, sit, track, bite, etc, the real trick is to find a way to make them do it for us, when we want or need them to.

Thanks Hired Dog for responding, I was left speechless by what Peter Cho wrote.  Is his dog learning to track or run for political office? 

@Peter Cho, did you read any of my posts?  It seems not because if you had, you would understand that IPO people are asking to train in our tracking group because we have permits to train the dogs off of a 6 foot leash, per the local ordinance and we have enough room to lay 4-8, 400-600 meter tracks for people who come to train with us.  The only thing LOL FUNNY about the situation is that the IPO clubs have left their own members in such a bind that need to come to us for help.  The IPO clubs near us do not have the same amount of space available, nor the permits to allow dogs off leash in the public areas that have lots of space for laying tracks.  In our group the dogs learn to track, when the IPO guys go back to their clubs, I assume they then teach the dogs to "follow procedure".  Like I have said many times here on the forum, just because your dog has mastered the IPO 1-3 track doesn't mean they really know how to track.  The quickest way for people like yourself to find out, is to enter your IPO titled dog into an AKC TDU trial or your own clubs FH trial.  In fact, going solely by the way you and others seem to poetically describe IPO tracking in your own words, you guys need to STOP calling it "tracking" and rename the whole phase to "foot trailing obedience" because what you do now is not tracking, unless its the FH.