another video - Page 5

Grimm-- you have done a real nice job of explaining "alternative" training techniques in a polite and educated way. I can't tell you how nice it is to actually talk about and help explain training techniques with someone who knows what they are talking about. We are on the exact same page but with slightly varying styles. What you are doing on the table, I do on the ground. What you guys are doing with the "box" is more along the lines of what I do on the table. Far to many people say, "well that is not the way I was taught" or that is not the "right" way without actually considering why the person may be doing it this way, or at this time in a dogs training. I always try to watch what a trainer is doing, figure out why they are doing it, watch the results, and then deciding if I add it to the tool box. Great job. I'll talk training with you anytime.

This is my take on the Bite Box. It is not a cure all to gripping problems, and doesn't take a dog with weak genetics and turn them into gripping monsters. The way I look at it, a dogs gripping behavior is like a window into the dog. An experienced handler or helper can really see a lot in how a dog grips, is the dog confident, powerful, hectic, unsure, etc. I believe the grip is of paramount importance and should be closely looked at when considering a dog for sport work and especially breeding. The grip is genetic. I agree with a statement of Koos Hassing's from Tiekerhook wherein he states that you cannot "train" a hard full grip. You only cosmeticly hide it temporarily under the right conditions. Under real stress, the true gripping behavior will surface. This is 100% true. I view the Bite Box as a teaching tool and development tool in this way....I believe that there are some dogs, that no matter what happens early on will always always always bite hard and completely full, center sleeve, without fail, every time. I believe there are some dogs that never will bite hard and full. Where I believe the Bite Box helps is with the dogs in between. Their grip will be better if they are taught correct fundamentals from the very start, and given the best opportunity to reach their genetic potential, through limiting negative influences such as an inexperienced handler bringing conflict into it, or allowing the dog to spin when barking, etc. The Bite Box has several benefits that can be tapped. The dog can be placed into the box, and the handler can be almost completely withdrawn from the work. This helps the dog to work more independent of the handler's influence. The dog's not getting forward and backward movement on a line for example, and is backtied basically. The dog cannot spin in the box because of the walls so only forward works, no displaced drive. The dog can learn barking in the box much like the table video. Powerful barking, presents the reward, the grip. Solid tension can be made so when a dog gets a grip, he is shown that he should do hopefully what his genetics are telling him to do, which is hold it firmly. The slick floor helps the dog to load into the grip, because he can't use his body so much to cheat. This really helps in showing the dog to regrip a shallow presentation. We use this also to help teach a dog to "hump back" with the grip using his whole body to win the sleeve or item. Presentations are presented straight in, and placed as correctly as possible to help develop targeting. The line on the sleeve or wedge allows the helper to work a young dog and keep tension in the grip without having to be right on top of the dog. The helper can work in and out and neutralize the dog to him also. Dogs will pull us around to load up into the box and seem to really enjoy this gripping game of tug and war. I like the ability to remove maybe a lesser experienced handler out of the picture and just work the dog, which you can't always do just backtied on the ground. The box is best on a young dog developing its natural gripping ability. You cannot train a hard full grip! You can only try not to screw it up if it was there genetically.

Get A Real Dog, Thanks for the compliments. I agree that I really wish people could be more open to things others are doing. Give someone a chance to show and explain and take it for what it's worth. Things like the table or down muzzle, etc., we have used countless times and seen lots of success with it. It can be done wrong though, like anything, and that's why I like it explained in detail. I'm sure right now there's someone in the world using a method I've never seen that if I had the opportunity to tap into that knowledge I would benefit from it. No one knows it all and we should always be open to new thought. I like that people are talking training on here and sharing knowledge. That is awesome....

Agreed. 100% I talked about using the table to "channel" drives. My theory is if a dog is balanced in prey, prey aggression, fight, and defense drives, and are taught to win in each of these individual drives, they become a very well rounded and confident dog. If a dog lacks a little in prey, tapping into fight or defense or vice versa, they can channel these drives in a fight, or under the stress of a trial, and it carries them through. I'm a firm believer in a well balanced dog. If they are balanced, you can tap into these various drives at various times for the task at hand, sport, or training for different sport venues, Police Service Etc.

oops... It is similar to the mixed martial arts of UFC. Your strength may be in ground fighting, or stand up striking, but if you do not train to be a well rounded fighter in all areas, you are not going to be as successful. You can have all the gentics in the world and lose to someone who has better training. You can beat someone who has better training, if you have more heart and physical ability, just depends on the day.

Wow, look at all this cool information coming out into this forums which is usually kind of blah. Thanks for sharing guys!!!

Ok, I have a question about this type of training and particularly this video. Is this schutzhund training or police patrol dog training? The reason I ask is because, if this is schutzhund training shouldn't the helper only exit from and reenter the blind on the left side? Schutzhund dogs are always to come around from the left side, right? By exiting and reentering the blind on the left side the dog might also look for the helper, search from the right side and once a dog has started searching the blind from the right side instead of the left, this behavior is started and imprinted, it is hard to correct, stop or retrain correctly. So wondering is this schutzhund training or police patrol dog training? Also, is my thinking on only entering and exiting the blind from the left side for schutzhund to avoid complications correct?

ASK ME ABOUT, I think you may have confused this. The dog is only receiving stimuli from the "bad guy" in the blind to promote barking and the blind is being for that intent and not for the actual bark and hold. At the end, I think the intent is to hop off the table and away with the dog. I don't think they actually went in the blind But Nate (grimmdog) can confirm this and clarify if this had anything to do with preliminary work towards blind work.

Well, some interesting points to touch on. First off, the dog in question is a personal protection dog. However, we apply this work to police and sport dogs also. The reason is because the benefits of this work compliment each discipline. What we are getting from this training is confidence in the dog, more powerful and forward barking, and a dog that wants to "fight" with the man. We don't take the dog down and go to the blind. But we do work out of the blind, we've used doorways, buildings. etc. It's simply an area to go out of sight and allow the dog to build on when we are coming back out, where we went, and where he can defeat us and make us go. If you just back up, and are still in the view of the dog, I don't think it rewards the dog as well as initially leaving completely. We were also working schutzhund dogs there that day, so we had the blind handy for use. Dogs don't care if it's a blind or a door or what. But, the benefit with a schutzhund dog is they notice the blind, and it helps set that stage for barking at a man in a blind, wanting to get in there, and start the confrontation. The dog learns that powerful barking defeats the man, and that the blind is where the man is. A dog will pull to the table, jump up, and start barking at the blind because he thinks he's in there, and wants to initiate the contact. What sport person doesn't want a dog that looks at the blind as a fight? The way it should be? With powerful barking? And focus on the man? Notice in that video, when the dog was let down, what did he want to do? Go to the blind and find the man. As far as the dog entering the left, I prefer the right side. The dog comes around to a man, not a sleeve right in his face, also when running the away blinds the dog "barrel races" and doesn't do the big round. You can run hot blinds on the other side to promote the dog slowing down and looking for the man. Only my preference and there is no "only way" to do it.

oops! "By exiting and reentering the blind on the left side the dog might also look for the helper, search from the right side" I meant, By exiting and reentering the blind on the RIGHT side the dog might also look for the helper, search from the right side" Sorry about that. grimmdog- Thank you for your reply, I was lead to believe left side only, ever. I was told never, ever alow a dog to go to the right side. Thanks again for clearing this up.