The Evolution Of The Topline In The GSD

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by TRUEVIEW on 08 May 2008 - 00:05

Hello all. I'm just looking at the photo of ' Hill ' , The handler is not doing this dog any favours is he ?.

No disrespect intended to the handler but in this case I wouldn't be very happy with him if it were my dog he was stacking !.

I would like to see someone else stacking him in a different way or even see him free standing.

Without being to technical for me the handler has over stretched him and it looks to me like the dog had started to lean back on his front legs so instead of re stacking him the handler has made it a whole lot worse by pushing the dogs rear end down and forward with his hand hidden on the other side of the dogs thigh totally distorting the dogs shape and making a hinged effect in the middle of his back . Anybody agree ???.

by Sunsilver on 08 May 2008 - 00:05

No. See he PDB photo...it's better, but he still has one heck of a sloped back!

by AandA on 08 May 2008 - 09:05

I agree with both Sunsilver & Trueview, the dogs front assembly isn't the best in the world but the way the dog has been stacked doesn't help either. The front legs in both photos aren't vertical & the dog is leaning back almost as though he's going to go into a sit, which then accentuates/creates a steep upper arm and overangulated rear.

I wouldn't say his pedigree was crammed with quality, especially on the sire's side, but I did notice that his GG Grandfather (V Aranyvölgyi-Örseg Brass) has a similar structure & stack.

It would be better to see a photo of him naturally walking into a stack but having said that the photo of him in this thread does give an impression of two dogs sewn together!

AandA

by Speaknow on 08 May 2008 - 09:05

Amazing AandA: here’s my post, typed before I saw yours! (Great minds …) I only saw the PDB photo but still, very strange: almost as if the rear and front hands belong to different dogs! An oddly upright front joined by steeply sloping top-line to a strongly angled hind. The dog’s front does look as if it’s leaning backward, whereas rear hock angles forward from the vertical.

by Sunsilver on 08 May 2008 - 12:05

Yes, I saw his great great grandsire's photo, AandA, and was even more shocked to read his Koer report! If my translation is correct, here's what it says

Harmonious lines, expressionful head, pronounced withers, very good length and angulation of the croup, correct angulation (of fore and hind)

Pronounced withers??? The last time I studied structure, the withers were located ontop of the shoulderblades, where this dog has a pronounced dip in its back!! And to my eye, that dog has a very steeply sloping croup!

No wonder some of us are so confused about what constitutes a good, correctly angled croup: it depends on who is judging the dog, NOT the SV standard!

by marci on 08 May 2008 - 14:05

I agree with you about the WITHERS... Its definitely NOT PRONOUNCED... The back is definitely SHORT... This MODERN TOPLINE is the problem... Noticed that the topline nowadays looks similar to herding dogs and NOT WORKING DOGS...

by Sam1427 on 08 May 2008 - 19:05

Good thread! This is what I expected when I reigstered here.

For anyone who is interested: The book referred to is The German Shepherd Today, in several editions, by Winifred Gibson Strickland. She ran the Wynthea kennel for many, many years and used both American and German GSDs in her breeding program; she quit showing in AKC breed when the excessively angulated dogs took over. Her kennel is still running apparently; just google Wynthea.

Ricardo Carbajal's Del Cono Sur is on the web; google the name and look for the kennel link www.delconosur.net The videos are still available. Just click on the link for them on DelConoSur's articles page. I think I will order them. I've been looking for something like this.

by Preston on 09 May 2008 - 07:05

Sam1427, excellent post. Wynthea includes drawings of various types of GSD angulation, structure and movement. These are most informative and valuable. Ricardo Carbajal is considered by many to be the world's foremost expert on proper GSD strcture and movement. His videos are a must for anyone that wants to learn proper vs faulty GSD structure and movement.

by Speaknow on 09 May 2008 - 08:05

I’d like to change tack somewhat - maybe look at other construction elements? The GSD is foremost meant to be a functionally efficient trotter, one able to cover the maximum distance with the minimum effort, with good reach and drive translating to fewer strides. To further de-mystify, a particular breed’s ideal proportions largely relates to height at wither to that of overall length, together with depth of chest to length of leg - both of which in turn dictate relative bone length. As said previous, the dog is most easily understood as a system of levers (major bones) and pulling ropes (muscles/ligaments), with the back acting as a strut connecting the front and rear assemblies. And the simple fact that a lever is actuated most efficiently at 90 degrees underlies rationale relating to angles etc. If bone lengths, and respective ratios, at the front and rear are even, the dog is correctly balanced or proportioned. And with a firm back and balanced angles front and rear, a dog of fair but only average construction will generally outperform one with only a good front or just a good rear. Overall construction should be such that reach and drive are equally effective; imbalance results in uneven gait and other restrictions. And where do we go from here?

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