The Evolution Of The Topline In The GSD

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by Preston on 21 February 2008 - 05:02

Yes, you can see the Ursus stamp of typ, but no roach problem and no steep croup ! Nice feet, good pasterns, adequate angles at both ends and no apparent east west in the front or cowhocks in the rear. Is she as solid mentally as most with Ursus close up? I do not think the back is too long. If the croup was steep her back would appear even shorter. GSDs like this can usually gait all day long and can be true working dogs.

by Preston on 21 February 2008 - 05:02

The standard calls for a level back moving, not standing. I believe that V1 Shotaan Alfons has a perfect topline (and bottom line too) and I predict that it is highly likely he moves level, that is correctly with balance, power and grace. If anybody has seen this GSD in the showring, perhaps they can comment. To my view he is one very good looking Male Stallion.

by Speaknow on 21 February 2008 - 07:02

Thanks again, Preston. Given a well-slanted back, with direction of hindquarter drive roughly similarly aligned, it’s easy to see how frontal lift thus produced serves to compensate in part for inadequate reach, and as partly absorbed by the center of gravity up front. As you said, not exactly efficient, with part of propulsion wasted in overcoming the front’s bad geometry! I’ll go further and say that, despite appearances, it’s altogether bad construction, especially since any dog with even fairly average fore and rear proportions/angulation will easily outperform one with merely a good front or decent hindquarters only. You’ll agree that an equally effective, well-matched reach and drive is paramount, if only to promote a smooth unhindered gait. Little wrong with a slightly sloping back, or even a slightly curved spine for extra strength, but here we’re talking about extremes. I still can’t figure the back as a seesaw, which entails a fulcrum somewhere, but see it as a straightforward strut or connecting bridge; or your: “The increased weight at the front end due to the increased leverage it applies on the rear helps to direct the propulsion level rather than just upward.” Or: “And this makes breeding and showing easier since excessive length can cover up imbalance between the front and rear during movement because it creates a lever/stabilizing effects bi-directional front to rear and vice-versa.” Generally I agree that even a very gentle croup may to some minor degree project rear propulsion upward (or away from back’s slope rather); but, not only need croup run smoothly into backline (with angle appropriately related to back’s length), but delivery of rear thrust, or its manner, is subject to a whole range of other factors as well (rear angulation or/and length and relative proportions of bone, ability to drive off good, strong hocks say, being but two). A too flat croup on the other hand, with drive directed forward at too shallow an angle, will see part of it wasted, but whether it also pushes the front down seems a moot point. I meant to avoid any mention of ‘roaching’ – the lifting of back above height of withers whilst dog is in motion – but apart from inherent inefficiencies this curved transmission of thrust clearly must push the front down to some extent. Again, difficult to deal with in isolation, as for ‘topline’ itself considering its close connection to length of loin and ‘coupling’, as well as overall proportions, arc of limb movements etc, etc. As you say: “…balance is the key here and the coordinated vectoring of all angles and ranges of motions.” (Not to mention harmoniously proportioned length for all major bones). Like this topic and reading more of your insights.

by marci on 21 February 2008 - 09:02

To make it understandable in Layman's term ( heck... we're not all engineers here) The angle of the croup should compensate the weight of the front (e.g. bigger head, heavier bone needs a steeper croup to push the dog upward...) the Flat croup ( and / or Roach back) will just just make the dog DIG the ground while gaiting... the Steep croup on the other hand coupled with long (weak) backs will just propel the dog upwards (as if like a HACKNEY pony) and will not cover a great amount of distance... Leverage and length of the topline works like a SEE-SAW.... say a heavy front needs a short back that is... closer to the withers, a longer and sloping rear end towards the croup to make it balanced... The longer over-all proportion (not a longer back) gives a stabilizing effect like that of a F-1 racer ... should be level in MOTION (not on stance) higher withers unless well-angled and long-boned will only lower the position of the head... the slight arch of the back will hold up to the weight of the entire body... the slope of the loin and croup, compensates the weight of the front... This is all about the TOPLINE ... but if you dont consider the length and angle of the fore and rear legs ( plus the thighs) its like driving a BMW motorcycle with Bicycle wheels...

Now can I ask...??? With short legs in the rear... or if they are pulled towards the rear (stacked)... or if they are well-angled (almost like kneeling)... this will make the topline level...Right.??? But for less-angled rear legs (but long)... well-laid and flat withers (making the neck and head carriage high)...the rear paws directly BELOW the PELVIS... Wouldn't it give the outline of a roach or a dipped-back... or the back sloping towards the front and not towards the back??? (like most MALs that doesn't have pronounced withers...)

by anand v on 21 February 2008 - 09:02

bob, thank you very much for starting this thread ( just could'nt resist writing)

and preston ....................... i am just speechless, as usual with your posts

i have just dropped my jaws upto my knees ..

by AandA on 21 February 2008 - 09:02

Cracking topic... which I think I might be keeping up with!

Can we then say that the lay of the croup is too steep/shallow only when viewed within the confines of a particular dogs structure?

AandA

by Speaknow on 21 February 2008 - 10:02

Yup, the croup needs to join back smoothly. Shorter, tighter backs have croups trending toward a 30 degree angle (with backline), and those for longer backs may go down as low as 20. Length and lay of croup of course also influences width of thigh, as well arc of movement possible from hindquarter.

by AandA on 21 February 2008 - 10:02

So a dog with a steep croup that is outside the standard but suits it's structure should move better than a dog who's croup is correct to the standard but not to it's structure.

In this case who should/would be judged the better dog?

AandA

by Sunsilver on 21 February 2008 - 12:02

Preston, my bitch is very sweet-natured. She will bark at strangers, but once introduced, she treats them like old friends. We were at the vet's yesterday, and I had to stop her from licking his hand while he was writing up her chart! He had to express her anal glands, and she did not so much as whimper or growl during the procedure. Her pigment and ears could be better, but she moves VERY nicely, and is very agile. When she and my male GS are playing, she sometimes jumps right overtop of him! Her mom has great movement too (Imp-Cen's Wings of Grace.) She's a little soft as to temperment, but does forgive if the correction's not over the top. She has excellent ball drive, and fairly strong prey drive. Any critters entering my yard do so at their peril!

AnadA wrote: "I have just dropped my jaws upto my knees .."

[scratches head as to how this could be anatomically possible...]

AnadA, you have a DOUBLE jaw?? And it's ABOVE your knees, not below? Oooookayyyy ....backs sloooowly out of thread.....

by Preston on 21 February 2008 - 22:02

Sunsilver, so based on how your bitch appears to be built from her photo, I am not surprised that she is agile and has good movement. I'll bet she can move all day long too. You say her temperament is a little soft. Guess what, how you described her temperament is exactly what Capt. Von Stephanitz's GSDs were like. I'll bet she could become "tough as nails" if their was a real theat. What you have is just the type of temperament that makes great family pets and good overall home protectors.

As far as the issue of force vectoring, it's not as complicated as it sounds. With a GSD we want the propulsion from the rear directed by the angle of the croup to be linear in its expression. This is possible with a short, firm back that is relatively straight or only very slightly arched. The worst situation is a curvilinear transmission of force from ther rear directed by the croup (angle).

Curvilinear force is best explained in this way. If I take 50 nails and nail them in a piece of plywood in two parallel curved lines 1/3 inch apart, 25 to each line, 1/16" next to each other (this will give you two parallel lines of nails forming a curved channel about 5" long with a 1/3" space between them--Now arrange them in a smooth curve with the end pint about 1-1/2" below the starting point, and about 3/4 inch higher at its midpoint, giving you a 1-1/2" arch. Take a piece of 1/4" od somewhat flexible poly hose one foot long and insert it in the space between the two parallel lines of nails. As you push the hose back and forth, the force generated from the front where you push the hose to the back is transmitted and expressed at its end point curvilinearly, that is at approximately 1-1/2 inches below the point you push from and faces at a downward angle.

Now do the same with two parallel lines of nails that are completely straight. The hose is pushed back and forth in a straight line (not curvilinear like the first example). What is important is the final direction to which the force is expended at its end point (the withers). With the curvilinear, the force is expressed somewhat downward. With the linear the force is expressed straight ahead and only slightly upward as directed by the croup, enough to provide some lift for suspension.

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