How do you price you working line puppies? - Page 4

Does a Sch title or KNPV title mean a dog is breed worthy, maybe, maybe not. There have been many titled dogs that could not reproduce themselves. breeding of untitled dogs does not mean the downfall of the breed. The SV rules are there for the betterment of the breed, agreed. If you are in the USA who's rules should you follow, AKC's? There are alot of AKC champions that I would not want a pup out of. So what makes a good breeding? Is it putting together 2 dogs that are titled? Or is it the thought, time, devotion, and honest self evaluation of the breeding. I believe it is the latter. No I am not supporting the quote "back yard breeder". But I also cannot support a person who just takes 2 titled dogs and throws them together and thinks he is a breeder and the breeding is great cause the dogs are titled. There are many breeders in the US that breed untitled dogs that are breeding very nice dogs. Just because the parents are not titled does not mean that the pups are crap and they are doing harm to the breed. If the grand parents are titled, and all back through the lineage are titled, one can probably assume that the dog could be able to be titled. In Germany you could probably throw a rock in any direction and hit a Sch club, In the US we are not that lucky, many have to travel over 2 hours one way to get to a club. A title does not always make a breed worthy dog just as untitled does not necessarily make a dog un-breed worthy. I have seen some titled dogs that had very weak bites and little nerve. I have seen some untitled dogs that were real man stoppers. A real breeder does not need a title on a dog to tell him or her that they like these traits on this dog and these on this one and hopefully when i put them together i will come out with this desired outcome. The market in the US is more of a companion dog market for the most part. When i have a litter, because of temperment testing, and daily interaction with the pups. I can tell which ones are more suited to what the particular buyer's situation is. a lot of the dogs that are sold will never reach there full potential but, become great life long companions for the buyer and the most important thing is they are healthy. Before anyone spouts off, no I am not against titles. If the US rules became that the dogs had to follow the same as the SV rules, we would also see SCH clubs pop up all over and have the same advantage as are brothers in Europe. Yes i believe in hip and elbows x-rayed. What I am against is people putting down someones pups just because the parents are not titled. If you want to put there pups down then go out, test their pups and if they are crap then put them down. A title is not the end all of a dogs worth. I have bought some very nice untitled dogs out of Germany to be trained for police service dogs and their drive, abilities, if they could reproduce themselves, I would take them over one of the weak nerved titled dogs as a stud anyday. No not all service dogs are breed worthy, I have worked and trained service dogs in the US and abroad and have seen some that should not be bred, but have also come across some phenomenal dogs and would not need a title to tell me how great a dog that not only can apprehend a fleeing suspect but can fine a buired cache of explosives that is buried 8 feet deep. Plain and simple, a title is a way of guageing a dog, but there are other ways. the most important aspect of breeding is breeding a good sound healthy dog that produces good, sound, healthy pups, to the standard with good temperment and I am talking the GSD standard not the SV breeding standard. mike

Mike, Very very well said !!! Bravo, agree 110%

Ageed, well said!

without titles [and koers] how do you indicate that your dogs are any more workable than the AKC dog who goes to Lance 32 times in 8 generations who has a RN,CGC, CD????? Just because the OWNER says the dog is breedworthy???? That is why we use judges - objectivity is not the prime charactistic of most owners/breeders. Sure there are dogs who get expertly trained to get a title, we have all seen dogs with schh3 titles and we scratch our heads - and lots of dogs with Schh1 or Schh3 titles maybe are not really breeding or superior working caliber, but they are at least trainable - no titles, no credentials = not meeting any standards to indicate breeding quality. As far as price - sorry, pups from dogs who are younger than 2, therefore only [maybe] prelim'ed, with CGC RH or even BH are not worth big bucks and won't go to knowledgable people at any price - sure to novices who never had a GSD, if the breeder is good at marketing but they certainly are not worth the same as pups from a pair of working line Schh3, Koer classed dogs, who are proven producers of working ability and good functional structure from prior litters - credentials are a demonstrable identification of and means of "loading the dice" for genetic supriority.

Title are what certify that a dog/bitch is within breed standards. Without them you allow for chaos in the breed. Backyard breeders believe that their judgement is more valid than the universal standard adopted by a breed organization. If it is too hard to acheive the titles maybe you shouldn't be breeding. 90% of those that call themselves breeders should not be. What percentage of "pure bred" dogs do you think end up in rescue or worse executed by the local pound? You are only validating the back yard breeder by this line of thought. This becomes fodder for the yahoos that want to put such tight restrictions on breeding that legitimate breeders suffer. Yes, this is combative; I love the breed and I'm not a breeder. If your breedings aren't a search for excellence (a step towards improving the breed) your breeding is a failure. Dogs to pet homes should be your mistakes that are neutered; not an intact dog that is going to pass on more bad traits. Any professional breeders who don't speak out against this type of thought are only condoning it. I USE THE WORD 'PROFFESIONAL' AS AN IDEAL RATHER THAN THE ABILITY TO TURN A PROFIT.

Don't forget, SChh titles, along with koerklass ratings and V ratings as originally intended were to reduce the risk of any breeding. Or looking at it conversly, to increase the chances of getting quality animals. To use Scott's analogy with the students, this is no different than Harvard going by SAT scores to admit you or Yale using LSAT for admission to their Law School. The CHANCES of success are much higher with a higher score than with a lower one or without ANY test at all. Does this mean that a person that scored low (a dog with no titles) can't make it? No. Does it mean that the Attorney with the highest LSAT score and highest GPA is the best one? (a dog with a V ScHhIII KKl1) Not always. I think I've been to some of those. Are some good prospects left out? Yes. But nobody has found the perfect system of prediction. Breeding is like gambling at Vegas. But if you are smart, you do your homework and try to make the odds as much in you favor as you can before you ask for another card or pass. If ALL you want is a dog that will "fly through the air and "hit like a freight train" and you are there to see both untitled parents and you want to take a risk onthe pu, by all means go ahead. But for those of us that occasionally go out looking for a pup and can't fly around the country looking at every prospect, then the titles are worth something, not everything, as to predicting the future of the pup. MC

MC, You have a physical and temperment test for the GSD. The temperment portion has evolved into a sport. The Germans were smart enough to require some sort of working test, for all GSDs, in order to achieve the higher "show" ratings.

I consider myself to be i the know and would have no problems buying a puppy from an untitled dog that i have seen. But that is because i assume most dogs are subpar until proven other wise. Ive seen dogs that required several tries to pass the protection phase, dogs tht refused to engage on the long bite (not missed), but refused to engage. and these dogs passed 3 mo later after working thru the problem. IMO (barring something severre happening) if a dog wont engage on the long bite, or anywhere else for that matter, it isnt that good, any just because you put a sch1 behind its name doesnt change anything. I recently had my 1st litter of two puppies, my male is titled and the female is not. why, because i dont care, i dont care if she is titled. why dont i care, because i plan on keeping at least 1, and anyone that i would sell or give the other puppy too, knows i dont like SH*T dogs and have not problem calling a dog SH*T even if its my own. and if i say the bitch has good drive in protection, has a civil side to her and a nice grip. then that is what i mean and i have no problem bringing her our or posting video (note i posted video to back up my claim) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAdvdsNTNTQ in an age where breeders w/ a website, and titled dogs and able to spew all the buz words are only second to porn sites, how can you trust a title. ive seen dogs come over from europe w/ titles that wont even bite, track or sit. yet to those that dont know these dogs breed worthy. i dont know how true it is but i was once told that USA does not verify titles on imported dogs. is this true? there are many very trusting buyers out there, im not one of them. i tell folks when it comes to dogs, dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

Wscott, Nicely Written !!! I thought about buying a dog from Germany, a friend and I were thinking of traveling there to look at dogs, however that fell through and after talking to our training director (who has been there) I was advised not to worry too much, As several other club members had purchased dogs, Titled dogs from Germany and when they got to the club here, the dog performed mediocre at best. Titles are not everything !! While they can give a generalized idea of ability, the Truth is seeing/handling the dog yourself. koer classing... same applies in my OP, Some judges would love my dogs and others might hate them, just as some would love John Doe's dogs and others would hate them. find the right judge for your "style" of dog and you'll come on fine, get the wrong judge and suddenly your dog is not breedworthy. Standards... Breed Standards give good guidelines to breed worthyness, So long as your putting dog A who posseses qualities A thru Z but lacking a bit on X with dog B who also qualifies A thru Z but is strong on quality X to improve dog A well then in my OP you are breeding for imporovement.

yep. Titles, KKL, and breed standards are great, but there is no way everyone will agree. So the best we can do is discuss our personal theories and opinions, and try to educate the general public and new folks the best we can. At the end of the day it comes down to personal prefrerence. The only breed standard that is set in stone would be that of wolves and wild dogs, where if a dog is not up to par, it dies. I enjoy schutzhund and competitng w/ my dog, but my goals may be different than others. My dog stays in the kennel, he is not a house dog, and i dont want him to be. i want him to be "wide open" and do whatever he wants in the backyard (be a dog if you will). while my retired females GSD lives inside and she has boundaries and must behave. same breed two different expectations, both loyal, stable, hardworking, couragious, and both shepards