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by hodie on 22 February 2010 - 17:02
Sabrina,
I am completely out of suggestions. IF the mass really is a tumor, it may be that it is blocking the lymph system leading to a buildup of fluid in the chest. The fact that the fluid shows no infection and no cancer cells does not help with any kind of diagnosis, but I am not sure where the fluid was drawn from. Were you told or did you observe the color of the fluid withdrawn? Was it milky colored? If there is fluid in the chest and a tumor, there is a condition called Chylothorax where lymph fluid builds up. You can read about this online.
This is not as common in dogs as in cats. And it can be treated, but requires specialized care. As well, normally, there is a reason for this buildup and it often means something is seriously wrong....a tumor, the heart not working etc. IF the tumor can be removed and that unblocks the lymph system, the dog might be ok. It can also be "idiopathic", meaning no exact cause is found. Generally, the outcome is not very good, even with surgery.
If the dog is as ill now as you say, I also have doubts about whether she can be saved. The trip alone given her current condition, would be very tough on her, but she might do fine. I don't know that the vet in KL will try to drain her chest given she already has an infection but you are coming to a desperate situation here and the possible benefit may outweigh the risk. I don't think there is really anything extra you can do for her if you do take her to KL except to try to pad her with some foam covered by a blanket so she is not getting pressure sores. And you should be doing that now if possible. If she is so ill she cannot get up, this does not bode well for the dog.
Sometimes the most difficult thing to see is that the dog is suffering. If you were in the US or home, I know she would have had a definitive diagnosis by now with all the care and concern you have shown. And she might have also be getting the treatment she needs to improve. Without a correct diagnosis, at this point, treatment seems like there is a slim chance of success, but it is not impossible that she might improve depending on what surgery would find.
But, where you are, in Maylasia, I cannot even begin to speculate what training these vets do or do not have, and what access they have to proper diagnostic tools. She is very young for what is happening, especially for it to be a cancer. There are so many other possibilities, including infection by some organism yet to be discovered. And what if she is operated on and there is a tumor? Even IF they can safely remove it, what would be her prognosis?
My thoughts are that you have to make a choice now about what to do and whether to put the dog and yourself through any more. I think you have done a lot, but without proper help there, and probably state of the art care, I am not sure that this is going to have a positive outcome at all. I cannot make the decision about what to do for you, but I know what I would do in this situation.
Do let us know the outcome, please, one way or another. We are all rooting for you and for Sam. It is always difficult to know someone loves a dog who is so sick.
I am completely out of suggestions. IF the mass really is a tumor, it may be that it is blocking the lymph system leading to a buildup of fluid in the chest. The fact that the fluid shows no infection and no cancer cells does not help with any kind of diagnosis, but I am not sure where the fluid was drawn from. Were you told or did you observe the color of the fluid withdrawn? Was it milky colored? If there is fluid in the chest and a tumor, there is a condition called Chylothorax where lymph fluid builds up. You can read about this online.
This is not as common in dogs as in cats. And it can be treated, but requires specialized care. As well, normally, there is a reason for this buildup and it often means something is seriously wrong....a tumor, the heart not working etc. IF the tumor can be removed and that unblocks the lymph system, the dog might be ok. It can also be "idiopathic", meaning no exact cause is found. Generally, the outcome is not very good, even with surgery.
If the dog is as ill now as you say, I also have doubts about whether she can be saved. The trip alone given her current condition, would be very tough on her, but she might do fine. I don't know that the vet in KL will try to drain her chest given she already has an infection but you are coming to a desperate situation here and the possible benefit may outweigh the risk. I don't think there is really anything extra you can do for her if you do take her to KL except to try to pad her with some foam covered by a blanket so she is not getting pressure sores. And you should be doing that now if possible. If she is so ill she cannot get up, this does not bode well for the dog.
Sometimes the most difficult thing to see is that the dog is suffering. If you were in the US or home, I know she would have had a definitive diagnosis by now with all the care and concern you have shown. And she might have also be getting the treatment she needs to improve. Without a correct diagnosis, at this point, treatment seems like there is a slim chance of success, but it is not impossible that she might improve depending on what surgery would find.
But, where you are, in Maylasia, I cannot even begin to speculate what training these vets do or do not have, and what access they have to proper diagnostic tools. She is very young for what is happening, especially for it to be a cancer. There are so many other possibilities, including infection by some organism yet to be discovered. And what if she is operated on and there is a tumor? Even IF they can safely remove it, what would be her prognosis?
My thoughts are that you have to make a choice now about what to do and whether to put the dog and yourself through any more. I think you have done a lot, but without proper help there, and probably state of the art care, I am not sure that this is going to have a positive outcome at all. I cannot make the decision about what to do for you, but I know what I would do in this situation.
Do let us know the outcome, please, one way or another. We are all rooting for you and for Sam. It is always difficult to know someone loves a dog who is so sick.
by GSDtravels on 22 February 2010 - 18:02
Sabrina, just the lengths you have gone to for this girl, lets us all know just how much you care for her. If I were in your situation, I would probably let go at this point. I'm not saying that's what you should do, you know what her exact condition is and you also know if you believe she can take any more.
I made the very difficult decision to put a very young dog down a couple of years ago because there was no definitive diagnosis of his total paralysis. He stopped eating completely, whined constantly, not because of pain but, I believe, he couldn't understand why he couldn't just get up and walk. He so loved life and that was no life for him. He had been a happy, healthy, beautiful boy before the incident and I couldn't watch him deteriorate into a bag of bones, nor could I bring myself to force-feed. I had to learn how to manually empty his bladder and it was horrible watching the look on his face as he had been house trained since 9 weeks. By the look in his eyes, it horrified him that he was being relieved in the house. I could no longer watch the indignity that he was suffering and with no diagnosis, there was no end in sight. It was the most painful decision I have ever made but I don't regret it for a minute. I stayed steady while my heart was breaking, until the anesthetic put him under, then fell apart as the second injection took the life from his body. I can still feel his big, beautiful head go limp in my lap and I can still feel the stabbing pain as I attempted understand why. I'll never know why and I'll never forget, the pain is still severe even though it's been three years. I often think of how he would have matured and not a day goes by that I don't miss him. But I could not watch him suffer.
I know that you've done all that you can and am hoping for a happy outcome. If that is not the case and/or you decided she's had enough, do so with the knowledge that you have done everything humanly possible. Just don't forget that sometimes, you have to know that what's best for them, is to let them go. I wish for peace and strength.
I made the very difficult decision to put a very young dog down a couple of years ago because there was no definitive diagnosis of his total paralysis. He stopped eating completely, whined constantly, not because of pain but, I believe, he couldn't understand why he couldn't just get up and walk. He so loved life and that was no life for him. He had been a happy, healthy, beautiful boy before the incident and I couldn't watch him deteriorate into a bag of bones, nor could I bring myself to force-feed. I had to learn how to manually empty his bladder and it was horrible watching the look on his face as he had been house trained since 9 weeks. By the look in his eyes, it horrified him that he was being relieved in the house. I could no longer watch the indignity that he was suffering and with no diagnosis, there was no end in sight. It was the most painful decision I have ever made but I don't regret it for a minute. I stayed steady while my heart was breaking, until the anesthetic put him under, then fell apart as the second injection took the life from his body. I can still feel his big, beautiful head go limp in my lap and I can still feel the stabbing pain as I attempted understand why. I'll never know why and I'll never forget, the pain is still severe even though it's been three years. I often think of how he would have matured and not a day goes by that I don't miss him. But I could not watch him suffer.
I know that you've done all that you can and am hoping for a happy outcome. If that is not the case and/or you decided she's had enough, do so with the knowledge that you have done everything humanly possible. Just don't forget that sometimes, you have to know that what's best for them, is to let them go. I wish for peace and strength.
by hodie on 22 February 2010 - 18:02
IF the condition is chylothorax, a quick review of literature suggests that the prognosis is not very good. One critical question is about the fluid and what it was like, and color. The vet should be able to tell you whether it was lymph fluid.
Even in the US, treatment usually does not succeed, even in young dogs. Trauma, congenital defects and other things can cause this, but sometimes no cause is found. When a tumor is present, it often is the exact cause of the failure for the lymph fluid to drain properly, but a variety of surgical repairs don't seem too promising. A supplement called Rutin also does not really help. The U. of Michigan vet school had a study going on where they tried a different treatment than the normal surgical protocols and their study was not terribly promising either. In the US, this usually is a fatal condition. In a third world country, IF this is what is going on, it does not seem likely that the dog can be saved.
Best wishes Sabrina and Sam. I hope I am incorrect and you can write soon with good news.
Even in the US, treatment usually does not succeed, even in young dogs. Trauma, congenital defects and other things can cause this, but sometimes no cause is found. When a tumor is present, it often is the exact cause of the failure for the lymph fluid to drain properly, but a variety of surgical repairs don't seem too promising. A supplement called Rutin also does not really help. The U. of Michigan vet school had a study going on where they tried a different treatment than the normal surgical protocols and their study was not terribly promising either. In the US, this usually is a fatal condition. In a third world country, IF this is what is going on, it does not seem likely that the dog can be saved.
Best wishes Sabrina and Sam. I hope I am incorrect and you can write soon with good news.
by Sunsilver on 22 February 2010 - 18:02
Sabrina, I really feel for the tough situation you are in with your dog. Basically, at this point, you have two options. You can have the surgery done, and, as you've been told, it may or may not be sucessful, and Sam could possibly die on the table. Or you can have her humanely euthanized.
At this point, allowing her to continue the way she is is not an option.
I know this is the hardest decision a dog owner ever has to face. IMO, you are the only one who has the right to make that decision, as you are the owner, and only you know all the details.
Do what your heart tells you is the right thing.
{{{{HUGS}}}}
At this point, allowing her to continue the way she is is not an option.
I know this is the hardest decision a dog owner ever has to face. IMO, you are the only one who has the right to make that decision, as you are the owner, and only you know all the details.
Do what your heart tells you is the right thing.
{{{{HUGS}}}}
by dogshome9 on 23 February 2010 - 02:02
Sabrina, I have followed this all through checking in on a regular basis and reading your last post my heart felt like a lump of lead, I also send you (((( hugs )))). Stay strong you will know what needs to be done.
by SabrinaT on 24 February 2010 - 15:02
It is very difficult for me to write this now but I thought you all deserve to know what has happened.
We have lost Sam today, we had brought her to KL to attempt the draining / surgery.
We knew that this was a longshot and Sam was not likely to survive but we were frankly out of ideas, it was the only option left for Sam and she has fought so hard she deserved one last try but she was just too far gone.
Just basically as we got to the vet in KL Sam slipped away.
We are so so upset she has gone, we never once rejected doing tests / giving medication due to cost. We have done absolutely everything suggested by these useless vets in this backwards country (Though nearly everyhting done for Sam was suggested by us through you guys on here).
I am just so angry at the 'vets' in this country, they have shown so little care and consideration nevermind a complete lack of expertise and training and when we slightly question what they say the reaction is ridiculous.
Words just cannot describe how upset I am, we have all taken this so hard (especially my son who is Sam's actual owner and has been looking after her for all these weeks). Sam's health was my responsibility, we've just tried everyhting we could in this country but couldn't save her.
One thing I am so grateful for is that Sam went when she did, with us still there. After seeing how the vet reacted to Sam dying, it pains me to think we were going to leave her there to attempt draining and surgery.
It was definitely a blessing for her that she went then, having spent her last time with us, rather than being left at that hospital. At least she wasn't put through being cut up by these untrained, unskilled vets.
Her last times were spent with her family who loved her, and will always continue to do so.
At least she lived her life well, with us who loved her so much and always gave her a good life (rather than 'others' here whose idea of good dog care is locking the dog up in a cage 24 hours a day).
I will never forget Sam, she was such a gentle and kind dog.
She looked so peaceful when I said goodbye, at least she is now free.
We have lost Sam today, we had brought her to KL to attempt the draining / surgery.
We knew that this was a longshot and Sam was not likely to survive but we were frankly out of ideas, it was the only option left for Sam and she has fought so hard she deserved one last try but she was just too far gone.
Just basically as we got to the vet in KL Sam slipped away.
We are so so upset she has gone, we never once rejected doing tests / giving medication due to cost. We have done absolutely everything suggested by these useless vets in this backwards country (Though nearly everyhting done for Sam was suggested by us through you guys on here).
I am just so angry at the 'vets' in this country, they have shown so little care and consideration nevermind a complete lack of expertise and training and when we slightly question what they say the reaction is ridiculous.
Words just cannot describe how upset I am, we have all taken this so hard (especially my son who is Sam's actual owner and has been looking after her for all these weeks). Sam's health was my responsibility, we've just tried everyhting we could in this country but couldn't save her.
One thing I am so grateful for is that Sam went when she did, with us still there. After seeing how the vet reacted to Sam dying, it pains me to think we were going to leave her there to attempt draining and surgery.
It was definitely a blessing for her that she went then, having spent her last time with us, rather than being left at that hospital. At least she wasn't put through being cut up by these untrained, unskilled vets.
Her last times were spent with her family who loved her, and will always continue to do so.
At least she lived her life well, with us who loved her so much and always gave her a good life (rather than 'others' here whose idea of good dog care is locking the dog up in a cage 24 hours a day).
I will never forget Sam, she was such a gentle and kind dog.
She looked so peaceful when I said goodbye, at least she is now free.
by hodie on 24 February 2010 - 15:02
Dear Sabrina,
We all know how hard you tried to help Sam. Unfortunately, I am not sure that even if you were here or at home, you would have been able to save her. Being in the situation you are in, I think it was unlikely that you could have ever saved her.
We all also know the sadness of loosing a beloved dog. It will take time for those pains to lessen. In the meantime, please, do NOT second guess yourself. You did what you could. The dedication and the love and the effort you made is so evident. We here have nothing but respect for those who go the extra mile for a dog needing help. You did that, and more.
I send you a hug and I am so sorry for your loss.
best wishes.
We all know how hard you tried to help Sam. Unfortunately, I am not sure that even if you were here or at home, you would have been able to save her. Being in the situation you are in, I think it was unlikely that you could have ever saved her.
We all also know the sadness of loosing a beloved dog. It will take time for those pains to lessen. In the meantime, please, do NOT second guess yourself. You did what you could. The dedication and the love and the effort you made is so evident. We here have nothing but respect for those who go the extra mile for a dog needing help. You did that, and more.
I send you a hug and I am so sorry for your loss.
best wishes.
by GSDtravels on 24 February 2010 - 15:02
Sabrina, I am so sorry for you, I know how hard you tried to save her. She is at peace now and will not have to endure any more suffering. I know how it feels, like you just don't know what to do, empty. She fought a valiant battle I'm glad that you were with her when she went, she deserved nothing less. You're in my thoughts and my heart goes out to you.
by Sunsilver on 24 February 2010 - 16:02
Sabrina, I am so very sorry for your loss. However, I have to agree with Hodie. it is possible you could not have saved her even with the best of care.
If she were my dog, I would do one last thing. I would ask for an autopsy to determine the cause of death. At least this would give me a sense of closure, and may even reveal that Hodie was correct.
You did everything you possibly could. I hope that thought will be enough to bring you a measure of peace in the days to come.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
If she were my dog, I would do one last thing. I would ask for an autopsy to determine the cause of death. At least this would give me a sense of closure, and may even reveal that Hodie was correct.
You did everything you possibly could. I hope that thought will be enough to bring you a measure of peace in the days to come.
{{{{{HUGS}}}}}
by AKGeorgias mom on 24 February 2010 - 18:02
Sabrina -
I am so sorry for your loss. You did absolutely everything within your power to get Sam the best of care. My thoughts are with you.
Opal
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