Look GARD, it's a real dog!!! - Page 12

Jennie
you never hype the dog up in bite work  when it is learning and i have not said otherwise, You take it in steps and before you get a novice dog to Bark and Guard in a hide you work it so the helper is at the back of a hide then have the dog on a line and let it go to the helper but without biting at the sleeve so the dog on the line can bark two or three times, no more close to the helper but not bite then a signal is given to the helper who lifts his sleeve and the handler gives the dog a little slack on the line and the Dog then bites the Sleeve as soon as he has the sleeve in his mouth the Helper slips the sleeve and the handler runs in a circle with the dog carrying the sleeve then the handler brings the dog to him still holding onto the sleeve and calms the dog by holding him on the chest with one hand and stroking the flank with the other very slowly, meaning' come to me' the dog relaxes in the handlers arms and it takes away any stress or nerves from  the Dog then they continue again no more than two or three times to start with everything is taken slowly and time is not considered for every dog is different, Now Guys pick holes in that post for i am sure you will

Held
You do not do the Sport,  yet you tell me i am wrong and say i do not know what i am talking about,  Thank you for making me out to be such a Dumb F-------R   i wash my hands of the lot of you post away to yourself this Mug is one no longer i am finished on this forum, for what i may say in the future will not be taken seriously by you people

I have been reading this thread since it started and thought I would put in my two bits and ask a couple questions.
I haven't actively trained in Schutzhund or anything much for that matter in quite a few years and I'm sure training techniques have trained some, like some of the phases are different too (ex.  no attack on handler , SchH1).
First of all I liked the dog, I didn't see a nerve problem, just a dog that wasn't handled correctly and was civil. Took it to the helper for the smack aside the head. I do believe looking closely the leash was still attached to the dog and the helper did have a stick in his right hand.
 Steve I understand where you are coming from I think. The dog did not do a bark/hold but went straight in for the bite. When I was training we had dogs that were dirty all the time. They were kept on a line and corrected off and made to do the bark and hold. Sometimes two lines were used so that the dog didn't begin to avoid the handler. I never liked the helper correcting dogs, IMO it made some dogs not want to get up close like they should. So in this instance I think the handler should have walked up took hold of the leash, outed the dog with a correction if needed and then encouraged  guarding. If the dog barks, gets a bite slip the sleeve, then start from scratch keeping the dog on a line until he is more use to the routine.
Sooner or later the dog has got to be sent off line. Dogs still sometime were dirty, biting, bothering or bumping the sleeve or helper when first sent off line even though they performed fine while on the line.
My questions are don't some dogs do that over there ? Why do you think it was nerve vs being excited and lack of training or sent in to do the bark/hold off leash before it knew the correct way to guard?
 

trailrider
i will answer your question before i bow out of here, Normally an excited Dog will go to the helper and bark, back away and bark again unsure of what it has to do but you will see the dogs tail wagging as it is encougraged to do so by the helper who is speaking or making a sound as the dog barks that is when a dog is green at the game,
But this Dog went straight in like a bullet, he wanted to bark and guard as he did first time on a line but for me his nerves on that occasion got the better of him and he dived in and bit on the sleeve no tail wagging straight in
 No big deal but it was me saying his Nerves got the better of him started the disagreement and all everyone was praising the dog for biting the helper afterwards and in that i am in agreement with everyone else the helper was a stupid man and i did not say it was the dogs nerves that made him bite the helper it was the helper hitting the dog with his bare hand which did that But he had no need to do anything but slip the sleeve and then it was over and it was no fault of the Dog,
but it was supposed to bark and Guard that is the excerise in Schutzund for that sequense finishing off i never said the dog would not get out of this habit with proper handling not many dogs are not trainable,
A top handler once said to me he had a dog who was a handful he was okay with him but did not work great, he let another Guy have him they took to each other and went on to be a great team Suitablity is the thing
Now my Goran is a friendly dog most times, but he does not like a stranger handling him he will not do nothing for them, Not even for a great handler who took him for a session the Dog would not move off the spot so the Guy motioned to me to take over he could not beieve it but it happened Goran does not like to be petted or touched when on the training ground he does not bark or growl, he just moves away from the hand and totally ingnores the person and it is not nerves that does that he is a one man dog and that it
I am not in the class of a being a top handler In Protection in Schutzund far from it but on the other hand i am not a mug ethier, i am not replying again on this again and i have said it three times now that is something i have never done in my whole life so this is a first it never goes beyond twice it goodbye from this Novice in the Schutzund sport
Steve 

Thanks for the reply! Love your new little girl, Izzy.

Steve, take it easy.Just cause you do shutzhund does not automatically means that you know everything about dogs and just because i do not do shutzhund does not mean i do not know anything about the sport or dogs.I have said before i love dogs and i learn from some of the best and i am always interested in learning how to train a dog properly titling a dog is not my cup of tea.


Dogs are not a simple subject, do you honestly think the best trainer in the world or in your country,whoever he or she might be,i do not know who it is you feel free to tell me,knowes everything there is to know about dogs if you say yes then you are a bigger fool than i thought.

I tell you who are my main Gurues, Gottfried Dildei,Bernard Flinks,go and do reserch on these guys and then tell me do they know about dogs and shutzhund or not.Gottfried Dildei was teaching people how to do shutzhund obedience motivationally 25 ,30 years ago and some of the so called hot trainers of today using his philosphy today.i may not be into shutzhund as far as competing is concerned but i know about shutzhund sport and more importatntly how to train a dog propperly and what it takes and what kind of a dog it takes to do the sport right.

Don't take things personally in the dog world there are too many variables and that what makes no one mr know it all in the dog world.Have a nice one.

Held:
 
You might take your own advise.

Bob i am easy like sunday morning!Have a nice one.

Held,
i should not reply to you but you tell me i do not know what i am talking about then you tell us you do not do any training in Schutzund,
that is okay and nothing wrong in that everyones Choice, But how the bloody hell can you tell me i am wrong and do not know anything regards ScH when you do not have anything to do with the Sport thats what gets me
Plus Bernard Flinks etc i have read up about
And the two Guys who help me and one has bred and trained a World Champion WUSV dog
  These two Guys have been working in the ScH sport for some 70 plus years between them. So yes, they are very experinced
One in fact is the Belgian Team Captain, He Travels all over the world training people and doing Seminars including the USA couple of times a year,
To Malasiya and Australia, and Canada, Plus he is a world renowned ScH judge, on the board of the SV and does a lot for the sport i believe that correct, Plus the other Guy was a qualified ScH JUdge now retired, is an outstanding Helper, and   is a very much sought after  Track Layer in Belguim, plus he is an outstanding Trainer so yes I think they are as well quailfied as anyone
Steve

When the dog came in for his second bite (and I personally would not have a clue if it was supposed to do a bark and hold or not - I suppose that only the folks in the video know for sure) did the helper try to correct him for coming in or coming in LOW?
Chasing the hand? By the few dogs I have watched over the last years (different breeds and different levels) all dogs where reprimanded for going for the hand and I have heard the decoys and trainings directors lament the fact that this action alone was a sign of not so good nerves?
So what is the story on that behavior? Or are the decoys I have overheard wrong for making such a huge deal about that sort of behavior?

As discussed before, there is never a bite exercise that occurs in the blind.  Bites in the blind are given only in training as a reward for good barking or proper blind search.  The idea of a weaker nerved dog biting towards the handle or end of the sleeve is in most cases is a sign of a lesser dog however, when a helper is in the blind and the sleeve is held in a lower, almost neutral position, the handle is in the center of the helper's body.  The dog coming in to perform a bark and hold has the handle right in front of his face, so if he's going to get cheap, that's usually what gets it.  A sleeve presented in a bite position should get the confident dog to bite full in the center of the arm.  Once presented, if a dog turns his head to bite the handle of the arm it usually is a sign that the dog isn't comfortable with the confrontation and bites only extremities, hands, ankles etc.  Some dogs when confronted frontally will bite the elbow to avoid the stick and will attempt to spin the helper in a circle.  Elbow bites on the escape are usually a result of bad sleeve presentation or a poor angle taken by the dog.  In this case, the dog shouldn't have bitten at all in the blind and when the helper attempted to "correct" him, things went south.  So, bottom line, biting near the handle in this case was not a sign of a weaker dog but more of a snotty pushy one.