fast-normal breedings? - Page 2

The only fair way of comparision between Ellute and Rocky was for them to be mated to the same female

Never the less the results are interesting

Personally for me

ANY one buying a German Shepherd Dog, should after the Dog is two years old Have its HIps and Elbows Scored and this should be made as a rule of  every organistation of the G.S world

This way no dogs would then be bred from, a lot of work for the powers to be, but ways can be thought out to do this

That way less G.S Dogs with faulty Hips and Elbows would be bred from, and at this time i bet they are

Personally i can see no excuse from any G.S Dog owner why they should not get the Hips and Elbows Scored of there dogs

Steve

A dog and bitch can be mated successfully even though both may have "a"2 fast-Normal hip ratings since "a"2 is a passing score and the hips are determined to be dysplasie free. "a"3 is also a passing score but I will not discuss that in this thread.

The Zuchtwert (ZW) of each dog and bitch is perhaps more important than their hip rating. This is especially true if both have produced in the normal proportions of "a"1, "a"2 and "a"3 when mated. Just for the record, "a"2 is considered by the S.V. to be the mean of their hip rating system and in the ZW system the value of 100 is considered to be the arithmetical mean. As far as the progeny are concerned, the rating of "a"1 Normal is considered to be a slight improvement and the rating of "a"3 noch Zugelassen is considered to be a downgrade and affects the ZW of each parent.

For example: Each whelp that is eventually rated to be "a"1 Normal will cause the ZW of both the mated dog and bitch to become a bit lower. Each whelp that is eventually rated as "a" fast-Normal will not change the parents' ZW and each whelp that is eventually rated as "a"3 noch Zugelassen will cause the ZW of each parent to rise slightly. If any offspring are classified as "a"4 or "a"5 then the ZW of each parent will rise at a much higher rate. This description of the hip rating vs. the ZW does not take into account any external factors that I will describe below.

The external factors include the outcome from the mating activities of the siblings, ancestors, and other relatives of the mated dog and bitch. The closer relatives have more effect on the dog's ZW than do the further relatives and I think this is easy to understand. In the end, there is nothing wrong with the "a"2 fast-Normal hip classification. There is nothing wrong with the mating of a dog and bitch who each have this hip classification provided all homework has been done before the mating.

SitasMom, I am not saying this to be a smart Aleck, but I think you will see the point I am trying to make. Would the mating of a "a"1 Normal dog and "a"1 Normal bitch be okay even if each had a ZW of 130? No it would not, and it would not be allowed as the average of each parents' ZW must not exceed 100. Would it be okay to mate a "a"1 Normal dog to a "a"1 Normal bitch if his ZW is 130 and her ZW is 70? By the rules, it is allowed since their average does not exceed 100. Would I do it?  No, I would not.

Best Regards,

Bob-O

I will add further comments here since I did not know whether I had enough space above. My idea? If the S.V. (as well as all breeders) truley want to improve the hip joint health of the breed, then the allowable average of the mating pair's ZW must be continually lowered by a point or two (2) each year until the maximum average is, let's say, 90. How much of an improvement would this make; and how long would it take to see it? I do not have a quick answer for that as nature (in this case the laws of genetic distribution) does not correspond exactly to mathematics unless there are a great many descendents over a very long time.

Best Regards,

Bob-O

 Nice post Bob-o:

                                    The most important thing is do your home work.

Yes Bob your post was !

I personally think breeding 2 a2 dogs would be too much of a gamble for me to consider.  If you have one a2 dog you're breeding then it only makes logical sense to improve the hips by proceeding with a mate that brings strong hips to the table.

In a typical litter, not all of the offspring will usually receive the same hip rating.  There may be some good, fair, dysplastic, or whatever.  So what does this really tell us about the genetic prepotency for hips in future generations?  Will the dog that gets the fair rating in its hips tend to produce dogs in the future with fair hips, the good rated dog produce good, or can one really tell what will be produced?  I agree with Bob-O that the ZW rating gives us a much better idea of the future progeny.  In one litter I had recently, all the dogs went good or fair except one.  This was of course the one I liked the best, but she had one hip that would not quite pass.  Will she pass on her poor hip to others if bred, or since the rest of her siblings had better hips, will she also follow suit? 

DCW

The ZW rating system is a fine addition to making our breeding decisions, but I feel it's not without certain flaws.  Rocky or Ellute, would be fine either way, and fairly comparable in production.  But when a dog who's phenotype is worse, actually produces a bit better than the dog with a1 hips, it raises some questions about the system.  Is it fair to let the siblings affect the rating of the producer in question?  The unrelated females also having an impact on that score?  A couple years ago, Rocky and Ellute were both scored at an equal ZW84, so I felt this would be an interesting comparison.

One thing I would prefer in matchmaking, is that an a2 or lesser rating be only on one side of the litter's pedigree (either the sire's or the dam's).  It would draw less concern for me, to see two a2's in the first two generations of a single parent, than to find one a2 in the first couple generations of both parents.