The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 18

Blitzen: Not the AKC stud books, so it sounds as if they aren't of any real value then.

Dunno--their value may depend on whether you need a marketing ploy fo to enhance selling GSD's and pups from AKC specialty show lines. 

They would be of greater value if they included in the data the ages and causes of death of many of the dogs. Even today, when I look at recent AKC pedigrees of dogs from winning lines, I look back and see lines (closely inbreed/linebred) plagued with a self-destruct wish for early death.

You folks think we have problems with our modern Kraut SL dogs? You have no idea of what I've witnessed with Am-bred SL dogs over the years--croaking like lemmings. Funny thing is that many of these current American dogs may be traced to some of the highly touted GSD imports (purchased cheaply) from Germany (whether they be a Troll, a Bernd, an Ulk, etc. ad infinitum) during the 50's through the 70's.

Bottom line is that, after WW II, the Germans were not about to sell the best of their decimated DSH national heritage to Americans for any price. Even an Ernie Loeb, had to use a middle-man in Germany to facilitate his purchases of some also-ran dogs from Germany--often for a pittance. Yet, these are the very dogs that became pillars of the breed for the modern GSD showlines in the USA.

JMHO!

Yeah, Louise, they'd rather have spooks that are scared of their own shadow! 

Louise has it right.  Take Bernd Kallengarten.  A georgeous very masculine male with fluid movement.  But he had very bad wheels and reproduced the same, just like his big floppy ears that would wave at you when he moved.  Many of the imports were culls from West Germany.   Axel Poldihaus appeared to be a spook and produced it, but he also produced Ghengis which produced some excellent males which could be strong temperamented or like Axel.  Marko Cellerland was different, there was nothing wrong with him.  In the late 50's or early 60's there was a wealthy American woman that bought a very expensive top rated GSD Sch competitor with a V rating in show from Europe (west German breeding).  He was as good a GSD as I have ever seen anytime anywhere.  Problem is that he didn't produce anything when bred, but before this was known a friend of mine bred a very good bitch to him and ended up with some dalmation type spots on all the puppies (we then knew why he was sold to an American).  Many Americans were impressed with Asslan von Klamme.  I wasn't and thought his temperament was weak, but he did move nice from the side and had good color a very plush coat, and also appeared short necked to me.

Things actually are different now.  There are some very nice showline GSDs in the USA which have been imported from Germany and Europe. And of course a fair number of American GSD breeders send their best bitches back to Germany to breed to the best producers.   And thanks to kennels like Eurosport and others there are some very strong spirited working line GSDs which have been imported into the USA which have good conformation and movement.  The problem is that it is hard for folks to get accurate information about which stud dogs are real producers with which type of bitches.

Back in the 60', 70's and 80's there were some American Shepherds (AKC) that had good conformation and had correct working temperament.  The problem was that they never had a chance to win in the showring, since the GSDs that were spooks could always outmove them from the side and appeared super animated (many of these wer actually running away from their handlers as fast as possible, and this is what the spectators and the judges wanted to see).  This spooked animated movement caused the lead to go tight which covered up serious faults like sickle hocks, bad backs and numerous deficiencuies in gait.  The super sound dogs with great temperament just never had a chance except for a few smaller all breed shows.  This trend in judging still continues today, except for a handful of American AKC judges who insist on loose lead and will not move up a GSD apparent weak temperament.  Unfortunately too many SV judges are following this path placing too much emphasis on crazed, animated sidegait on a tight lead.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

I haven't read Jantie's article for reasons I won't get into here. However, the title to this thread can be misleading in that it is genetically impossible to have only "one bloodline left" in the literal sense.

Preston, your information is very accurate as is your synopsis in my opinion. America did have some nice dogs in the 60's and 70's that people of the last twenty years don't have a clue. Most military and policedogs during this period were NOT imports. They were from American kennels that may have had foundation German stock but were still breeding very good solid dogs based on "what the perception a GS should be"(and rightfully so). When the fad for this extreme sidegait necessitating extreme angulation took hold, then many of the top breeders who still bred show dogs but would have other dogs in the litters become military/police/seeing-eye/dogs,starting breeding for the fad. As this increased, Temperament went to Hell in a handbasket!! What people can't get through their heads is this bottleneck on both sides of the water is 30 years of irresponsible breeding for the wrong outcomes(asthetic beauty), and CANNOT be reversed with the same dogs that created it by going phenotype to phenotype.(In other words I will breed to the same genetic type with good temperament and working ability and things will improve....nope won't happen, hasn't happened, and genetically is impossible to happen...sorry folks wishing it won't do it. It must be genetically altered by bringing in new blood outside the Bl and Rd scope!!!!!!

"or reopening the stud books to bring in different dogs from  entirely different lines/foundation dogs. Would the Czech dogs, for example, qualify?" 

In my opinion, there's little that is "typical" about Czech lines, as a whole.  In bloodlines from the Czech and Slovak Rep.; there are crosses of czech/showline, czech/west-workingline, czech/old-eastline and a whole gamut of "types" to be found, while at the same time they are faced with having few lines that are free of certain popular sires.  US breeders that utilize czech lines in their breedings have had varying degrees of success in work and health, so the individual lines selected have alot to do with the results achieved.  There are, for example, some lines that have serious temperaments to do real work, that lack the necessary drives to perform well in sport.  These dogs might add something of value to west workingline breeding.  Already, I believe czech lines are more popular for law enforcement in the US than german lines are.

Incedently, I've noticed several appearant "showline" breedings on the Eurosport website this last year, and I am not aware of the motives for this change, having enjoyed great recent success in sport.  If anything, a lack of unified cultural vision accompanied by an influx of imported german bloodlines will only worsen the possibility of establishing a strong Czech line identity for type.  My perception is, there is too much diversity in characteristics of czech lines to claim that Czech dogs are strongly characteristic of anything, these days.

One of the only few generalizations you'll ever hear me make, is that DDR lines are quite often unsuitable for sport.  I'm not inferring that they are useless, even when breeding "for" sport to a non-DDR dog.  A dog's intended purpose should define the breeding goals.  Structure and color have no dynamic use of purpose, without the temperament and drive that's "under the hood".  SchH sport, in my view, is only an aspect of "purpose", not the definition itself of "working ability".  Many dogs that are less satisfying in sport, still have much to offer in other forms of work.

Hope for the showlines?  I seriously doubt it, and wouldn't believe it to be worth any attempt trying.  I'd actually encourage an "official" break-off of the breed, and let the showlines that can do the work stay in, but force the others go.  Same with workingline offspring who are unsuitable or can't perform.  And let the work performed dictate the conformation established.  Different structures excell in different working circumstances, as do different temperament qualities.  But the rule without exception, should be a dog with a purpose, a talent that can be reproduced.

++You folks think we have problems with our modern Kraut SL dogs? ++

No, I think +people+  just have problems in general. For some reason this is a great fear bottlenecking to a breed. I have no fear of it. Outcross is not an answer... hybred via another breed is not a solution. Honesty to thyself may be an approach.

The dogs...ha they generally are fine.. there are plenty of well bred family lines that are hardy, healthy and robust. They are suitable for the variety of service we humans impose upon them.

The dogs and the bitches from families and breedings that are prepotent  of certain traits regardless of the mate, who posses genetics and proper enviormental upbringing are not in fear of being lost in the bottle nor do they need some frigen jeannie agenda to pull them out.

You will not find a computer program or excell worksheet to help you thru this. You will have to use some good old common sense and stop relying on performance worksheets and pedigrees alone to guide you .

Inbreeding and linebreeding are all appropriate means of gaining or maintaining qualities.  At certain times in a family  breed program outcrossing  to other certain family lines can be also be a tool.. it varies from breeding to breeding and from dog to dog. I have no fear of bottleneck in the breed... I have fear people are so disillusioned by grand organizations  they follow like sheep and now they have some bottleneck revelation some centuries later? scoff / laugh/ caugh.

Debi

www.sherman-ranch.com

" extreme sidegait necessitating extreme angulation"

Does this extreme angulation then produce a bowing or "roaching" of the back to take some of the weight off the rear? 

That may be part of the cause, justcurious, but there has to be some other things going on. If it were just the extreme angulation, then most Am lines would move that way too and I'm pretty sure they don't.