The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 17

Yellowrose, linebreeding off of Frei produced some awesome looks and temperament, total GSDs.  Frei and his sons tended to be docile and relaxed most of the time, but were ferocious when challenged in protection of bitework situations.  Some of the Busecker Schloss dogs were also known for fearlessness and courage in the protection and bitework. It was after this that the GSD split into profung lines and zuchschau lines.  The competition of both the profung and zuchtscahu rings is so extreme that it tends to drive this bifurcation/splitting of the breeds into two almost completely separate and different sub-breeds which have markedly different apearances and behaviors, except for some occasional exceptions of the "cross-over GSDs" which can compete respectably in both venues. It kind of reminds me of the world competition in manufacturing.  It has gotten so competitive that foreign based manufacturing is displacing many domestic manufacturers that can't compete for price anymore.  This destroys whole domestic industries, and drive many folks out of work.  It's like this extreme competition in profung and zuchschau destroys the basic GSD breed so that we end up with physical abberations in both profung and zuchschau, with roach-backed rump-rollups in zuchschau and long string beans in profung, and both with incorrect temperaments from what was so typical and close to the standard in years past. 

I see that my assessment is confirmed: some people have their own ideas about what they like to see in conformation and work and have no interest in blending lines together again. Some American showline breeders are just like this: they have the overangulated, too long dogs with beautiful sidegait and see no reason to add German lines, especially the "ugly" leistung lines, to bring back working ability. Not to pick on darylehret but he wouldn't even answer a hypothetical question of whether he would let his wonderful working stud breed with a showline bitch. This is why I say the GSD won't be one line again in my lifetime. It took decades to get here and it will take decades to undo it, if that is even possible. 

The foundation dogs for leistungs are the same dogs you see in hochtzuchtlinie. It cannot be otherwise. Today it seems to be mostly the showlines that need the working line blood, but how do you do that if working line people are antagonistic to showlines? I still think it will come from the judging. The SV judges (and American and English judges too) will have to judge differently with more emphasis on character, working ability and correct conformation (that is, no extreme angulation, no roached or two-pieced dogs, etc.) When I say working ability, I don't necessarily mean schutzhund - heresy around here I know. The GSD was bred to be a herding dog, meaning it should be able to trot all day long. It should be bold enough to nip errant stock back into the herd. It should be clear in the head and able to defend the stock and handler if need be. Conformation must be correct along with working ability to achieve these things. If there is no true VA or VA1 dog, then don't award the title. Yes, it would cause an uproar. Yes, some would be calling for judges' heads. Yes, it requires a shakeup in the current parent clubs. It could be done.

Sam, you may be correct in your assessment generally speaking.  However, there are always exceptions, in profung, zuchtschau and yes even American Shepherds.  You have the occasional profung GSD that is V rated in conformation with a straight back, no roach, no steep croup and short backed.  And there are some zuchtschau GSDs that have the same but also have very correct working temperament. And I know of a few American Shepherds who are short backed, not overangulated in the rear or steep in croup, and have good working temperament (although these are typically few and far between).

There are some zuchtschau dogs that have been shown in the USA which are very correct, very attractive and have great working temperaments.  I have seen them close up and was impressed with them.  For example, Take the praiseworthy VA Bazi Urbecke, a total GSD for sure with great working temperament.  Or consider the most excellent VA Gorbi at Kirchenwald Kennels in Mass. who is very correct to the standard and has correct working temperament. This GSD is very correct in every way and is completely sound.  I think he is the highest placing American bred GSD in the SV shows in America.  A truly impressive achievement.  There are a fair number of other correct Zuchtschau GSDs in the USA and Europe, but one has to know about these dogs first hand.  Unless they ae politically connected, it is hard to find out.

And in addition there will always be individual GSD breeders in Europe and around the world who march to their own beat.  These folks make their own independent decisions and breed a GSD for good conformation and correct working temperament.  Most of these GSDs are just good conformation at a V level, not VA quality.  But there have been some that are VA quality and these dogs typically cannot place highly as they should in the showring because they are not politically connected, that is, they are not sired by the top 20 most popular studs owned by the political icons in the breed who can assist in publicity and showring success. Plus these breeders often refuse to hire expensive handlers which are typically necessary in order to place highly or win in the showring. Translated, this usually means that unless one uses a "politically favored" zuchtschau stud and is willing to spend a fairly large amount of money on the sport, chances of attaining success in the showring are very slim no matter what.  These renegade GSD breeders can and do produce attractive, eye-pleasing GSDs with correct working temperament.  Most don't waste their time in the showring and once they get their titles in Sch. typically fade into the background.  These folks are very independent and really don't care what others think.  They are committed to doing what they think is correct and that's that.

Daryl, from what I understand about genetics, hybrid vigor in a breed like this one could only result from introducing a different breed (or species)  or reopening the stud books to bring in different dogs from  entirely different lines/foundation dogs. Would the Czech dogs, for example, qualify? Haven't seen the COI's yet on any, working or show, but I suspect there has been more linebreeding in its purest sense going on here that most realize since all seem to go back to the same 125 or so foundation dogs. I think many of those foundation dogs may also have been closely related to one another. I think it would take a mighty effort and more than a few generations of selective breeding and judicious culling to even get close to that goal.  The best scenario would be that there are already top notch males and females around that are viable and genetic combinations of both "lines" with pedigrees that contain the best producers. According to what I read in this thread there are some who are already combining the working and show dogs with a lot of success. The big problem with phenotypical breeding is that it is subjective selection.

Responding to Blitzen's post upstream:

The F1 generation stands for 'first filial generation', meaning the first group of offspring from a particular set of parents.  I've never heard of the parents referred to as F0. They are generally just called 'parents'!  See this link for an example:

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

The 'red books' are the annual breed books put out by the GSDCA, for the GSD in the States. Sometimes you find sets of them for sale online. They are a valuable resource for breeders re. breed history and pedigrees. I've never actually seen one, but I know they give a fair bit of info on the dogs listed, such as colour, registry number, and date of birth, as well as the names of the sires and dams. Maybe someone more familiar with them can give details?

Oh, the Red Books are the AKC stud books? The stud book will show the name of every dog that has produced AKC registered progeny. Each dog is entered only one time, when their first litter is registered with AKC. The books indicate the sex, reg number, color, sire & dam, DOB, and owner at the time of that mating. 

At one time you could subscribe to the stud book for a specific breed and get a printout every quarter I think. They were also available in a bound edition, again breed specific. Later I thought AKC was offering them on a CD. Some Malamute people put all the registered Malamutes on a disk using the stud book for reference. They sell it as a fund raiser for rescue.  I have one and can pull up every Malamute ever used to produce registered progeny since AKC breed approval in 1936.  I can also track every registered dog back to the foundation stock in about 2 minutes or less. It's a much shorter trip back to the foundation dogs in that breed than it would be with GSD's.  I believe AKC approved them in 1906. Is that right? The stud books are a great way to generate pedigrees for all GSD's that have produced AKC  registered litters.  I wonder how far back one could trace an imported pedigree using the AKC stud books?

The Red Book is not the AKC stud book for the GSD. They are (or were?) published by the GSDCA--I believe, originally, a brainchild of Cappy Pottle before the task was relegated to someone else to edit and assemble.

I have a Red Book or two stashed somewhere. The original concept was to tabulate under a single cover the production statistics/data from the Futurity/Maturity system tabulation, other show wins, and the production of AKC breed and performance titleholders.

JMHO, these books contain a lot of prejudiced misunformation and biased propaganda.

I particularly recall one article (if memory serves--written shortly after CTH brought back a couple of Kimon pups shortly after he became German Sieger) broadly condemning the German bloodlines and their place in the USA. The bottom line, according to this article, is that these damned dogs bite, leave bleeding scratches/lacerations on the arms of the owners, and have no off switches. Yes, ladies, these little critters have to learn early that they have a "job". They do not thrive in a breeding kennel.

Indeed, who the hell in his right mind wants to breed these drivey little Kraut pups to sell the the average AKC pet home?

ROFLMFAO!

Not the AKC stud books, so it sounds as if they aren't of any real value then.