Training with force? - Page 3

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People,

I read all of your post and I am wonderring why you have to argue on a topic like this. Why did Steve Leigh post that question about force training? There are hundred of ways to earn a 100 point in every phase, but the most important is which way is suitable for your dog.

in my particulat situation, the dog would go up to the scent pad trck for about 5 steps then turn around and look at me, id give one more command he might track a few more steps the look at me again.  judgeing by his past performances id say he knows how to track.  in my eyes there is a huge difference between not tracking and not trying.  iv e seen track 10 out of 10 times thru different types of tracks, distance etcc... but if on that 11th try he looses the track, thats ok we'll find out where the problem is and work thru it.  but if on that 11th try he goes out 10 paces stops tracking and looks back at me we've got problem.

my dog is not retired and while i never really reached my goals w/ him he understood how to track and how to retrieve.  im sure what kind of disobedience you call it but when i say track he damn well better try.  he may not track 97pts but he needs to put his nose the ground and try.  he may loose a corner, but to stop tracking because he overshot the corner and cant find it , is unacceptable.  my dog wil be rewarded very well for a track well run, and for working thru problems to the best of his ability.  But to not track, to just stop and not try is disobendience and will not be tolerated.

i realize that im an ASS on many many many different levels, but platz is platz, fuss is fuss and track is track PERIOD!!

id like to add one more note regardign disobedience.  at one point i was having problems w/ the sit out of motion in trials.  my dog was 99% perfect in training but in two trials he missed the sit.  i had to ask my self did i have a training problem, teaching problem or handling problem.

well after much thought and even more beer i occured to me that i give my dog signals before the sit, stay, about turn etc... and when we look at video of the trial i can see that i was not setting up for the sit in motion the same as in training, nor was i giving the sit command on a long left stride.  i was giving it on short right stride. which is what i use for the stand.  so if he did a stand it was not willful disobedience rather confusion about what my body was saying vs my voice.

the point is even us folks who use the awful force track, and retrieve are capable of higher thinking.....

like i said above, pressure is likea faucet.  too much and the pipes burst, not enough and not water comes out.  So if you are trainer who claims to use all motivational training, you cant be confused when you give a command and nothing happens, just like if you use too much pressure you can only look to yourself when your dog shuts down.

>  Excellant post Steve! As I work and train PSDs I often must use force training. In my line of work I only get one time to do it right, if not it could cost my department, city, myself a lot of money or even a life.

>  I do not however condon the use of abusive methods such as stringing, kicking or throwing him around or excessive cursing hollaring. I do use a throw chain however when necessary to get their attention.

gsdhausphm- This is a constructive debate in which people will actually learn something useful, unlike what normally goes on around here.

I'm fortunate enough to have not had a problem dog in tracking- yet. But I have given my dogs light correction if they lose focus, and I have certainly corrected on articles. My older dog loves to track so much she will make a ridiculous racket in her crate when she knows I'm laying a track.

I think it's interesting that so many people seem to truly beleive if you motivate your dog enough, your dog will never be disobedient. In my experience, almost every dog has days where they don't feel like it.  A strong dog will certainly test you at some point. Perhaps when the dog makes a mistake, anti-correction handlers still feel its 110% them?  I guess I don't quite understand the mentality, and proofing a dog with 0 compulsion doesn't make a ton of sense to me, our dogs have minds of their own, and will attempt to assert themselves at some point.

Interesting discussion, there's much I agree with from both sides.

Steve, does Gene still do tracking seminars?

Very good discussion and I learned a thing or two.....Good post Steve Leigh...

I agree.

Training is an art, and the necessary application should be the clarity in what is being done.

i own a showline bitch that is now a great tracker sch1 98 pts at a club trial   Nothing to brag about, but she is not

Your greatest of wanting to do anything. Carlos Rojas helped me train her after she would just lift her head and say i dont feel like it.

What he did is build drive   He held her while i went out on the tracking field with a whip and a bite jute and let her go to bite the tug which she liked over and over again.

weeks later of that then he laid 2 tracks for me and the bitch was fired up she tracked with drive which she never did for me before

Weeks after that he then made big circles going everywhere and we was able to correct her on the track without stopping.

Yes, i agree they do need to understand that a certain amount of something will happen if they dont track.

V.

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