GSDs in the German Press - Page 4

Grrrrr, this frickin thing cut off half of my post...................

I would like to see the atual cases of LE paying out millions in liability claims from bad bites broken down by breed. 

This is really nothing new to anyone who has been involved in GSD's for any amount of time.  Compare the working abilities of the AM SL GSD, the Alsatian, and the German SL dogs of today to those of 20 or 25 years ago.  Do the same for the working line dogs.  Is it any wonder that the Malinois is replacing the GSD as a working and top sport dog? 

Jim


 

I think a malinosperson can find faults in the GSD just as a GSD person can make generalizations about the malinois. I agree that the different showversions of the GSD is of course getting less and less suitable for work, but they are rarely used anyway for policework, but in many countries the GSD is still in majority and there are more breeders of working GSDs than malinois. Just because the malinois now is more common outside belgium/france/holland it´s still hasn´t taken over, especially in "real" work, it´s just a good alternative to the GSD. I don´t think the rest of germany that haven´t their own breedingprogram for malinois like NRW has ditched the GSD. 

Johan,
I agree with you again.  In speaking with German K-9 handlers, the majority prefer GSD's.  One reason is that the German Malinois are smaller than the Dutch Malinois and more sport driven.  Malinois are used in Germany for their equivalent of Special Operations / SWAT deployments.  Another issue the German K-9 handlers run into is the price they can pay for a dog.  The good working line breeders can sell their dogs to sport people for way more money than the Police Departments will pay.  Bringing up the whole issue that you can find a suitable Malinois for a better price than a suitable GSD.  The GSD's being offered at similar prices are not the cream of the crop. 

Jim



 

  Many sport people keep their GSD's in kennels. 

Jim,
I agree with most what you are saying. However we should not be  talking  here  about GSDs only as a police dogs and or sport dogs since  they are much more then that. I agree that many sport dogs are kept in kennels because they are pain in the butt in the house. But that is due to extremes of these dogs which are detrimental to the breed as a versatile dog. The high prey drive  must not go together with hyper activity, but unfortunately we see hyper activity and as a side effect of high drive way too often. As a matter of fact we see it so often that high drive and hyperness is consider the same thing by many. Also I am looking at the dogs not only as a police dogs, or as a sport or as anything specific, but as a versatile breed. Where the dog is capable to excel in broad spectrum of tasks. I am looking at it from the point of responsibility every breeder needs to keep in mind when they breed 2 dogs.
GSD is not just a police dog or just this or just that!

 Unfortunately breed specific statistics are hard to find thus we are dealing only with anecdotal cases and common sense. The person who would have such statistics would be probably Terry Fleck.
I have friend who is designing insurances for municipalities and other gov entities and she is going to look into it.
Off course there are exceptions to every breed and bringing exceptions as a evidence is easy to do but is is a wrong think to do. It is false to use a red herring as a proof of a point.
 
As far as prices go, we provide "basic" excellent ( based on satisfaction of our clients) GSDs and Mals  for $6000 shipping included to LE  all over the lower 48 USA states. Thus I believe that the prices on GSDs in comparison to Mals are artificially elevated, because it is  perpetuated that GSDs cost more as some kind of a truism. But  that is simply not the truth.
 
  Prager Hans

I would be interested to know what breed this police dog was. Unfortunately, they don't say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjkUXUgmHio 

It was a Belgian Malinois.
http://www.fugitive.com/2009/12/17/alameda-police-officer-forced-to-shoot-a-police-dog-while-searching-for-allged-burglar-douglas-wayne-kirk/
 
 
 In this case it was a failure of an officer to handle over the top dog. It is not the fault of the dog but of the department to putting such dog into the hands of handler who is not able to control the dog.
The K9 program was being reviewed as far as I know . However I do not know the results of that review.
 Maybe someone here does.
Prager Hans

Hans,
I agree with most what you are saying. However we should not be talking here about GSDs only as a police dogs and or sport dogs since they are much more then that 

The OP and the article was about the decline of the GSD as a working dog.  I agree they are much more than just working dogs, however I am trying to stay somewhat on target. 

Malinois due to their high prey are famous for biting their handlers, fellow officers, sport judges, trainers, and kennel personnel and family members, friends visiting the household and innocent bystanders. Because of that millions were and are paid in settlements by LE agencies all over USA. I do not know if it is still current situation, but at one time state of Nevada decided not to use Mals for LE for that reason.

You stated that malinois are famous for biting their handlers and everyone else imaginable.  I asked for statistics by breed to support your argument.  It would seem that they would be on the top of the list for vicious dogs if that were the case.  Then you said this:

Unfortunately breed specific statistics are hard to find thus we are dealing only with anecdotal cases and common sense. The person who would have such statistics would be probably Terry Fleck.
I have friend who is designing insurances for municipalities and other gov entities and she is going to look into it.
Off course there are exceptions to every breed and bringing exceptions as a evidence is easy to do but is is a wrong think to do. It is false to use a red herring as a proof of a point.

Is it me?  Or are you contradicting yourself?  It wasn't very long ago that you did not sell malinois at all.  I can remember you saying "There are enough good GSD's in czech and we have no need to sell malinois. "  As a business person and the law of "supply and demand" I would expect you to start selling both.  Otherwise many PD's would stop using you as you would be unable to supply the product they want.  I am speaking on my experience of working Police dogs, selecting and training them.  I do have first hand experience with the Seal team dogs and am friends with their trainers.  On the east coast of the US it is very hard to find decent GSD's that can do the job as well as a good Malinois or Dutch Shepherds for $7,000.  That is the market here.  I have a favorite vendor that we have virtually stopped using because the import primarily GSD's.  They are honest, upfront and great to deal with; a rare commodity in dog vendors around here.  I would prefer to deal only with them but the working abilities of the dogs they have do not compare to other vendors that also have GSD's, Malinois and Dutch Shepherds to choose from.  I will still drive several hours to test their dogs first passing closer vendors whom I don't trust as much to see their dogs.  It is often a long trip back after testing 12 or 15 dogs and not finding anything that suits my needs.  I keep encouraging them to bring in Malinois and they are reluctant,seems they are old fashioned or hanging onto hope.  Many larger PD's out here are switching more and more to Malinois and Dutch Shepherds.  I have watched this trend increase greatly over the last 3 years or so. 

Sunsilver,
That is a very tragic incident but the report doesn't go into detail as to how the bite occurred.  The cop sustained some puncture wounds to his left bicep, big deal.  All I can say is any cop that shoots a Police dog for biting him needs to find a new line of work.  I can say a whole lot more, but I won't.  I have to keep deleting everything I want to say regarding this situation.  What a waste and senseless tragedy.  I train the recruit class and bring up examples of Officers that have shot Police dogs and I will address this in my K-9 class next Tuesday.  Our recruits and Officers are told that if they are afraid of dogs to stay away from them, don't search buildings with us we'll call someone else.  I am more at risk tracking or searching a building for a felon with someone who is fixated on my dog because he is afraid of my dog.  There are plenty of Officers that have seen my dog at work and are afraid of him, he is rather intimidating.  I would rather track by myself than have to watch my back thinking someone may freak out and shoot my dog.  Not my kind of cop.  I am very particular who goes on high risks searches with me and will often leave Officers out and call someone else.  Better to hurt their feelings than get someone hurt. 

Jim

First of all Jim, you must get over the hump of  equating  "work" with "Police work". No, they are not much more then working dog. That is what they are. WORKING DOGS.  Nothing more and nothing less.

You stated that malinois are famous for biting their handlers and everyone else imaginable.
 I did use only examples which I am familiar with. I did not say "everyone imaginable". Those are your false words used by you for only the purpose  to demean my statement.
 
 
 Yes Jim,
 I sell Malionois. I sell Malinois because they are requested.  I breed GSDs and promote them because I believe that they are all around better then Mals.  And yes, from time to time I change my opinion. That is a good  sign of continuous learning process and of open mind to different ideas. Only an Idiot get stuck on one educational place and will not adapt. 
 
 Where do you think I am contradicting myself?  I am dealing with tens and sometimes with  hundreds of dogs per year and am dealing with many PDs all over the world. Thus the statement that malis are prone to bite more their handlers and owners and so on, is based on my personal experience. Just because it is hard to find official statistics does not mean that it is not the truth. CDC keeps stats on people killed by dogs, but they are not breed specific and deal only in absolute numbers and not in percentages.
If you want to find hard evidence  because of your different  experience then mine and because it seems that you have enquiring mind on this issue , then do it your self. I made abundantly clear that  stats for this hard to find. Thus your statements for lack of official stats, are just as much in questions as mine.  Off course we both know that statistics are not the issue here....
 Prager Hans

It was tragic in the way that the dog got shot. However my experience  based on direct knowledge and feedback from different PDs is that it is more common with Mals then with GSDs. That is not necessarily caused by Malis being "worse" dogs. They are just different and in certain and particular ways  they require actually higher level of handling then GSDs. However the nature of Malinois  performance is such that it often mistakenly makes many to believe that the opposite is the truth. Generally speaking more extreme dog needs more , or different,  knowledge to be handled then more discriminative  dogs. Thus I think that accidents like this are caused by inferior understanding and handling of this breed.   You do not need to get cut by sharp knife if you know how to handle it.
Prager Hans