The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 91

Some posters here and on other posts who are on the working side have said that they have tried to train and, or, work dogs with a show line background but without much success. Some have said that the ability to work from show line animals is not in the dogs.

Interesting comments, however, just how many dogs from the show line animals has each of these trainers, breeders, owners, competitors actually attempted to train? Anything less that say 100, 200 maybe a 1000 is too small a number to condemn the show line animals as a whole as a complete write off. I think that in some cases is just a case of one look at the pedigree and that is it, or, I will try for you but don’t hold your breath, or, just a half hearted attempt.

This argument that show line can’t do the job is just an attempt to support the working dog case. Once the numbers regarding the testing of dogs reaches significant numbers and illustrates the case in practical terms then the argument is not proved in condemnation of the show line dogs.

I am not trying to make a case for the show lines here because I have said quite clearly in my posts that I would like to see better performances from that side of the fence.

Mackenzie

Mac, I really think all of us made our points - as long as neither workingline breeders nor showline breeders are willing to see the faults within their own dogs, everything is said.
Just try to breed good dogs, and everything is fine...

As the Original Poster of this topic I am absolutely astounded by the remarkably high viewing figures the thread has produced. Despite no posts in the last seven days the thread has attracted over ten thousand more viewings over this period. Incredible interest still being shown in this topic. So many were against the topic upon it's introduction as being old hat, discussed many times and we have heard it all before but the clear message is that people do want to know more and that there is still much interest from readers. What a pity that the contributors were so few in numbers.

Mackenzie

Mackenzie... This argument that show line can’t do the job is just an attempt to support the working dog case... yet you still can't show us videos of showline doing acceptable psd work consistently. Prove your case with something other than TALK. The views your recieving on this thread is for entertainment purposes only. ;-)

vomeisenhaus - To show videos of the dogs captures only one moment in time whether it is a show dog or a working dog. They do not demonstrate the consistency needed in a proper working dog. As a demonstration there is a video of a show dog performing competent bite work at the last Sieger show. All of this has been discussed in the entertainment of this thread.

What do the titles SchH 1, 2, 3 and IPO 1, 2, 3 really tell us. All of the males over two years of age must achieve SchH3 or IPO 3 and the more titles a female has above SchH1 or IPO 1 is all the better. The titles themselves do not make a genuine working dog because all that they demonstrate is different levels of learning power and working ability. The bite work which the working people depend on as evidence is not the whole picture for a genuine working dog because through the testing system the dog must demonstrate it's learning power in the other disciplines.

These test are in a precribed form and in LE or any of the other agencies the requirements are greater. For example when called upon to track there is no predetermind length of track or direction with turns made within certain laid down parameters. There is no prescribed area for a search. When the dogs are walking to heel on patrol in public areas there is no way the dog must be bent around the handlers leg or the use of the hands to indicate a reward and keep the dog looking up adoringly at the handler.

The working side is so anti showline that there is a failure to distinguish the differences between demonstration of the ability to learn and work, the levels to reach for competition and what it really takes to be a full time working dog that will be called upon to use all of his skills without being bound by prescribed conditions.

I hope that there is enough entertainment in this post for the readers.

Mackenzie

I didn't read a lot of posts declaring that good character cannot be found in s/l dogs. But it is absurd to think that dogs bred for a specific purpose are going to excell over dogs bred for a completely different purpose. The beagle just won Westminster, does anyone really think you could turn this dog out in the rurals of Missisippi and he would run circles around the dogs bred for generations to hunt rabbits.

What is most interesting is that people with the most experience are the most honest about the subject. And the folks with the least discount everything they say.

Also, IPO can be taken as a sport or as a proofing, all in the goals of the breeder/exhibitor.And to say nothing can be determined by watching a dog on the field is wrong.

Also Mac, instead of challenging everyone to train a thousand dogs before having an opinion, why don't you save us all the wear and tear and you train just one s/l and sweep the BSP. I think a lot of people here will be able to determine if it's a strong dog or not by observing the performance.

ILMD - The example you have given of the Beagle without any training going to compete with seasoned dogs is absurd. Whatever the discipline there is no raw untrained dog that can compete with the best of them.

Of course watching dogs during training and in competition or proper work is beneficial to make fair judgements but needs to be seen in all of the disciplines to make a that judgement and not just in the bite work alone.

You are not paying attention to what I actually said in one of my posts. I did not challenge anyone to actually train 1000 dogs, this was only a part of the sentence to highlight the fact that judgements were arrived at without enough evidence.

Also for me to buy and train a dog to the top level is impractical because I may not get it with the first dog. Just ask any BSP owner/trainer how many dogs they go through in a year in trying to find a dog for the BSP and, when they do find a candidate after a long search still not get on the podium. I only have a limited budget these days and I would not want to have more dogs at this time as they can outlive me.

Mackenzie

also you makr the ascertian that the dog covering the most ground is the most efficient dog. I've heard this from show folks from almost the first show I attended. The rest of the story is that the dog that covers the most ground for 10 mins. in a ring wins the class.

The dogs this breed was founded on, that probably couldn't rate a "G" today had to cover that ground for 10-12 hrs. a day, 7 days a week and for several years to be valuable to the herdsman, as well as protect the flock frrom all comers.

You keep coming back to training as if that is the solve all for character. If I need a cow for milk production should I get a Jersey or an Angus. I guess by what you are espousing, the Angus would just need some training to match the Jersey in production?

ILMD, Mac is a show person, as much as he would like to pretend otherwise and as I have said in this and other threads, there is no convincing a show person that their lines are NOT capable of work.

The assertion that I must go out and test 1000 plus dogs to see or find ONE that can actually work is equally asinine. The breed is supposed to be a WORKING dog which means that ANY and ALL breeders in the GSD should be striving to produce working animals, not show dogs, end of. I should be able to go to any GSD breeder in the country and find a suitable working candidate, but....

The other claim that Mac keeps making about this thread being so popular and such, Mac, this subject has been done to death and than some, there is nothing of value to be gained by you going into it every few days and hoping to breath some life into it so that the same crap can be repeated over and over.

No, the sport arena is not where one measures the true value of a working animal, the street is.

ILMD - I have never ever said that "the dog covering the most ground is the most efficient dog". In today's show ring the running around the ring at the end of the Class at such a fast pace was something that was introduced by Hermann Martin. If I want to go dog racing I will buy a greyhound.

The German Shepherd Dog is a trotting breed and the anatomy as set out from the beginning was to satisfy that end . The movement of the dog should be at trot showing an economy of movement and stamina. No dog can work all day at the breakneck speeds that we see today. Also, of paramount importance the dog must be sound in it's movement to avoid sprains, inflammation of the joints, torn ligaments etc

The foundation dogs cannot be compared to today's dogs because over the years the dogs have changed by the breeding of the dogs. Not always for the better especially on the working side who in many cases have ignored the breed standard altogether.

I also have to point out that the sheepdogs of whatever period in time have never been in perpetual motion for twelve hours at a time. The dog may be "on duty" for twelve hours but that is different from physically working for twelve hours. If you do not believe that then spend a day with a professional shepherd.

It is also true that training will enhance the character of the animals - fact. To compare the breed with choice of cattle is just plain ridiculous.

Mackenzie