Dwarfs in Ireland - Page 9

HODIE  Na body is missing yer point, they jus dont want yer point aye !. Hodie ya one o the minority wi good ethics. Too many on ere av all got the carrier lines ya see Hodie so they aint gonna do na tests an they aint gonna stop usin tha carrier dogs so it will go on an on. Tha wi end up puttin more dwarfs to rest than normal ones being alive.  Ah dont see tha "TOP" kennel in Norfolk UK comin on ere ta say how many dwarfs they just bred heh !. Ya all so darn honest aint ya !. Dont bother yerselves comin back to attack me on ere , put yer time ta betta use an attack yer own breedin programs. Ya all too busy lookin fer excuses ta carry on wi the lines yer got , an I aint on na witch hunt ere, I jus know wots needed to preserve tha breed. Ya coulda stopped tha increase in dwarf production many a year ago aye  !!!!!!!!.
  

Thanks Jonah1.  Responsible breeding is limited to the knowledge at hand and when breeders are not forthcoming about what their animals produce you are handicapped at best. It's very sad and who is the loser?  The animals unfortunately.  And the breed ultimately. 

If you aren't breeding for health then what?  Without health nothing else matters.

JUDYK    Yeh yer right again but when they do av the knowledge at hand a lot of em ignore it  aye  !!!!.

I'm not ignoring anything and I'm not missing any point.

I've had cleft palettes in a litter and I've had those babies die in my arms and I've suffered that heartbreak and I learnt from it, it gave me a very good insight into how breeding to avoid something, can give you something else entirely.

Yes in a way I'm playing devils advocate, because I'm trying to understand and look at  a much bigger picture.

People are concerned about the health issues that we have now in the breed.  And rightly so, we all should be concerned, but genetics is pandora's box, if we breed to 'avoid' the bad genes, and effectively eliminate them from the breed, because over time, that will happen with the maladies we have now, my concern is by wiping out those lines what the hell are we opening the breed upto in the future?

Karen

Karen,

As I said there will always be something else, hence the reason we need to avoid what we know. Please dont try to tell me the dwarfism gene eliminates any other problem in those lines because thats what its starting to sound like. Common Sense came before science and for the most part common sense is still what most of us are breeding to and until a time when all dogs are fully scientifically tested (a day that will never be), that is what most of us will always be breeding to.

This thread started over a dog who allegedly is producing dwarfs but who also has a high hip score, proving at the very least dwarfism doesnt eliminate high hips without necessarily knowing anything else about the dog, common sense tells me thats enough to eliminate him from my top 10%. What others do is their perogative, but with all due respect, to try to defend dwarfism as ok because by eliminating it you might get something else, or because it is a condition which is noticed before being passed onto some unsuspecting puppy purchaser, is a argument I just cant buy into, sorry.
 
Regards
Sue

AmbiGSD. My question and concern is the opposite to yours, by NOT wiping out those lines what would we be opening the breed up to in the future ?. The breed has already been opened up to it  IMO.
As rough around the edges as he is Jonah 1 does speak the truth.  The only way to lessen the breeding of dwarfs is to test the breeding males / females.      Simon. 

Then Sue you are totally not getting my point.  Infact you are taking it as the direct opposite of the point I am trying to make.

I suggest you go back and read Gertv post.

Pay particular attention to this line.

NOBODY at this stage knows exactly which other characteristics might also to some extend be co-influenced by something like a simple autosomal recessive gene pair. To me that is where the real worth of AmbiiGSD’s point lays. Can anyone guarantee that you would loose nothing else as a result of totally eradicating a certain recessive gene?

Now I don't breed enough to even attempt and see whether that is true.  I just hope to dog when I come back to the breed in a  few years time, it's not in a worse state than it is currently.

Karen

In the absence of 100% reliable tests, you just have to use responsibility and sense.  Before you use a stud dog you can just ask the owner if he has every produced a dwarf,  they are more likely to give this information to an individual who is genuinely trying to breed a good litter than announce it on here for the jacklels to slaughter their dog.  If your dog produces a dwarf in a litter, tell the purchasers of the siblings so they are aware of the risk if they want to breed, don't repeat the mating, file the information and consider if the dog in question has enough to offer to risk breeding again.   If you get a dwarf in a litter from a different pairing, then perhaps you should withdraw the dog from your breeding program. A friend of mine who is no longer in GSDs had a dog that produced dwarves in his first 2 litters, maybe luck of the draw or maybe he had a stronger potential to produce the problem, but either way she made sure he never had a third litter and never had dwarves before or since.

Margaret N-J

kaffirdog.    You can ask stud dog owners all you like , it doesn't mean you will get a truthful answer and lets not forget that there have been incidents when the bitch owners have not informed the stud dog owner when they have produced a dwarf for fear of also implicating their own bitch so the stud dog owner would be unaware in those cases.  It's nothing to do with slaughtering anyones dog as you are saying.

Utrecht uni have confirmed in their letter to Kesyra that their test is reliable, this being for the hereditary type of pituitary dwarfism. I have spoken to them myself. The other causes of dwarfism are not the hereditary type that we need to test for so please stop looking for get out clauses by slaughtering a much needed test !.     Simon.