The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 89

joanjo  - Although our opinions may differ a bit I do understand your point of view.  There is no body in the world who can say, or, get close to how many show line dogs could go on to be full time working dogs.  The numbers are considerably more than the working sport people give credit to. 

From a working side point of view regarding the bite work at the sieger show the dogs are not very good.  The criteria for the bite work is only to show that the dog has a willimg character and the ability,  to attack and bite under moderate punishment.  That is the minimum and without the need to go as far as the competition dogs who sometimes go to extremes.  The working people have tunnel vision about what they do, there is no other view than their way.  As much as I appreciate seeing a good dog working I do not share the view that that is the only way.   I have a much broader outlook and if you have read my posts here and eslewhere you will see that I often critisize show line people for not doing enough in the area of training.  It is not all genetics and the development of the dogs is only improved by the way of training.

Mackenzie  

Blitzen, I do not get involved in personal issues on public forums and I do not know why you blocked me, it does not matter, I am going to guess its because of my dislike for show dogs, thats fine, I promise not to lose any sleep over it and I wish you good luck in your new breed, whatever that may be.

genetics, genetics, genetics then do all the training you want the response you will get from the dog will show you theirs no other way .thats why people spend so much time looking at the pedigree genetic don't lie

'It is not all genetics and the development of the dogs is only improved by the way of training.'
And this perception is why the working dog breeders can produce dogs that can work, and the show dog breeders don't. Without the appropriate genetics present, there is nothing to train. Let me see you race, competitively, a show grey hound against a race bred Grey hound. Or hunt a show bred coon hound against a coon hound from a hunting pack. Or how about taking a show bred Labrador duck hunting day after day against a duck hunter's lab. Let's see how a show bred pointer will fair in competition against a field pointer...the genetics must be present or the training is not going to matter. Even the border collie breeders who actually train for herding trials and stock dogs will not use akc border collies.

Mac, if the criteria at the Sieger show are not very good, why dont they change them? Is it because no dog would be able to handle it perhaps if it was made stronger or harder? If the dog has the "ability and willing character" as you put it, why does it do a watered down attack, run away, chew the sleeve, bite half assed, etc? Why does it not have the intensity of a working dog while it does it...I mean, it sort of looks like a GSD, thats supposed to be a working breed and able to do this, yes?

I will tell you why Mac, because character is also genetic and its not shown nor established in some ring, its done when the dog hunts a suspect on crack at 2:30AM in some dark alley with its whole being. Its done when it finds him and absorbs what punishment it takes to, but, still holds on despite it. It happens when it searches truck after truck contents daily, for 12 hours, looking for that explosive device. It shows when the dog chooses to work when its 110 degrees out or 30 below...thats character, not some choreographed routine in a safe ring with a safe "friend". 

You dont show your character when you go to the gun range to shoot at paper with your friends, you show it when you deploy at the front lines and feel that bullet buzz by your head, yet, you still stay BECAUSE you have character. You know Mac, there is a HUGE difference between HAVING character and BEING one.

joanro - You said "And this perception is why the working dog breeders can produce dogs that can work, and the show dog breeders don't." but what you are not saying is that show line can work it is just that the breeders, pet owner don't want to train for the work.   Big difference, you are blaming the dogs for something purely because of the attitude of people who do not want to work the dogs.  The examples that you give are like they are for exactly the same reasons.

Hired dog - I have said in a recent post that genetics is part of the dogs character but the development is na made.  The character of the dog working in the condition that you describe are all from man made enhancement.   Where would they have been without this enhancement?  It is not all dog.

Even the example about the gun situation is false.  Sometimes character under live fire is mistaken for something else.  Sometimes there is just no where to go in a firefight and the only thing to do is to shoot back.  Sometimes it is fear for your life that makes you fight.

Mackenzie  

Mac, last time on this because it does not seem to sink in. You cannot develop character if its not there. Dogs work to satisfy their own drives, not yours, so, they are there or they are not, same with character, end of. Enhancement cannot be made if you have nothing to enhance. You can try to dress a turd, but, in the end, its still a turd, period.

As far as the other example you offered, you are 100% wrong and unless you have been there, you dont know.

 

I have watched several SLs of different lineage be raised from pups and given an IPO foundation. These dogs were not overly nervy or sharp in their behavior nor were there any obvious faults that distinguished them from other SL pups I have seen.  Their handlers had to do about 2-3 times the work of a normal WL handler to develop the dogs drive for obedience and protection.  Numerous problems arose when the picture in relation to the helper changed, progress was always slow and painstaking.  Care had to be taken with pressure applied otherwise the dogs would shut down. Resiliency was low, drive levels were not sufficient to get the dogs to work well and come through pressure.  In addition due to the lack of heart, "character" or whatever you want to call it the dogs were never able to convincingly engage the helper, show good grips much less fight convincingly.   The lack of drives led to sloppy looking obedience and poor speed to the helper.  Tracking was nothing special. These dogs will never be able to do anything more then club level sport.  As to real work their lack of drive, nerve strength, would prevent them from being reliable or workable candidates in any LE venue.

That goes for young "green" SL dogs that I have seen as well.  In summary these dogs lack the genetics necessary to a working dog regardless of any training you put into them.  In most cases they end up looking like that dog Mentos that was posted, going through the motions nothing more or less.  Dogs from kennel di casa noble and x box blood lines to just name a few.

These dogs were suitable pets and for show period.

I have heard this myth before that only because SLs are not trained by their handlers their work always looks like crap.  I have seen many green WLs with minimal training convincingly engage the helper, show good grips, fight, drive for objects or food that makes training them a treat and a relatively quick process not to mention the hardness and resilience necessary to withstand pressure in the work and from the environment.

 Putting lipstick on a pig will not change the fact that it is a pig ;-).

Sucessful breeding/exhibiting of s/l dogs (the ones at the front of the class) requires meeting a whole different set of parameters from that of a dog bred for work or even for sport. You have to show up with what the judge wants to see or go to the back of the line. A wide gait, big shoulder opening, right head, good croup to name a few. It doesn't matter the character of the dog, if it doesn't have the right physical traits it is sent to the back. One cannot put "character" too far back on the list of priorities and really expect to get it consistently.

It is what it is.

Haz, I had to disagree with your post not because it offends my sensibilities, but because you went overboard to the point I consider it untrue. I don't see showlines taking any longer to train than workinglines. The showlines I have seen have the drives necessary to make the picture in obedience and tracking nearly identical to workinglines. There is an element of truth in what you describe but you go too far. Even in the bitework showlines should not take any longer to train unless you have already declared the dog a failure in your own mind or you are trying to make the dog something it is not. From what I have seen every dog is unique and moves at its own pace, some workinglines take longer than some showlines to learn certain elements.