The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 87

Two points in reference to Mac's conclusions that baffle me, 1) with the SL dogs a majority of the pups are not shown and do not go into show homes for various reasons ( usually not projected to be successful show material), often these dogs go to homes in which the owners start training them immediately, in Europe this is because these dogs still need titles to be bred, and in America they have an import out of Sch titled parents and so they want to do Sch with their dogs. It is apparent at 8 weeks the differences between these dogs and the others in drive and nerve in a almost all cases. Yet they are both starting training at the same time. 2) before the arrival of this sport culture of the past forty years, the majority of military  and LE dogs in the United States were often donated to the agencies and had no previous training. Actually, many of these dogs went from being tied out in yards which was very fashionable in those days to being donated to agencies at two years and becoming successful LE and Military dogs. Now I realize that many of you that have been in the breed for a minute have asserted the superiority of the dogs today over the dogs of yesteryear, but since I witnessed and participated in this occurrence, it baffles me how with the premise that the lack of early training, the superior SL dogs of today still wouldn't be able to overcome this if donated to said agency. It's very confusing to me.

Gustav, I see nothing confusing. I have said this a few times in this and other similar threads, people who lean toward show dogs, will find excuses and support those dogs and people who lean towards sport dog will do the same for them.

Mac leans toward show dogs and wants to make them sound more than they actually are. He is not alone, there are many others on this board who feel the same way. You have seen the vids of show dogs posted here doing sport, from 1960 and 1970, but, even if they were decent then, they are not now. This conversation can go on forever and ever because the dream of ONE single breed again has long a go become a nightmare and there is no going back my friend. The minute you say something about lack of nerve or working ability towards show dogs, some show person will come back with, "oh, but look at the stiffle or the shoulder on that sport dog" and the same applies the other way around.

When this attitude is applied towards breeding, you have the results you spoke of in your post, but, its all a waste of breath and time as no one wants to admit they are wrong and how they contribute to the breed's destruction, so, for most of the world, orange dogs it is for actual working purposes. Have a great day.

Does anyone really wonder why SL people rarely post here anymore? Do you have a GSD, Hired Dog?

No SL owner in their right mind would even think about posting a video on this forum of their dog doing anything including soemthing as spectacular as driving the SUV and shopping for groceries. Can you guess why?

Gustav - you are right on both counts. I should have made it clearer in my post that the show dogs are in the majority of dogs that are bred. Many do not make it to the show ring but despite this the failures are still capable of doing a day's work if they get the proper training. The failure rate in these dogs for work would probably not be much different than the experience of dogs bred from working stock. My point is that all dogs could and should achieve a degree of work skills.

Hired dog - My only leaning towards show bloodlines is to highlight the inadequencies that is common to them. The majority of these dogs go to pet homes and the ones that actually make it to the show ring represents only a very small percentage. I would not exclude a dog with show bloodlines from work just based on their pedigree. Unfortunately too many people on the work side just look and see how a dog is bred and automatically discard the show bloodlines. I am not talking about the anatomical differences but on this point the working side has to tidy their act up - big time. Returning to the point on training a dog from either side that can begin their training on the same day with both in the hands of a competant trainer and, in my opinion, at the end of six month's there would not be much between them. If the LE, Military and the like can make dogs with show bloodlines work then I have to ask the question "why is it that the working sport side cannot do the same?"

The only thing that I want is a return to the universal shepherd which made breed famous. Once again I have to say that we have a working breed which can be shown. If the working people do not exhibit their dogs how are they going to assess the anatomical necessities and benefits required by the breed standard in it's endeavours to provide the stamina and energy levels of a working breed. Just because the working side cannot breed to the prescribed standard it is not a good enough to excuse to split the breed and call it two breeds when it is one and the same. THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG.

Mackenzie

The only thing that I want is a return to the universal shepherd which made breed famous. Once again I have to say that we have a working breed which can be shown. If the working people do not exhibit their dogs how are they going to assess the anatomical necessities and benefits required by the breed standard in it's endeavours to provide the stamina and energy levels of a working breed. Just because the working side cannot breed to the prescribed standard it is not a good enough to excuse to split the breed and call it two breeds when it is one and the same. THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG.

............

You asked me this before Blitzen, twice, and both times I said that, yes, I do own a GSD.  Mac, for me, as a working dog person, there is a huge difference between a functional anatomic structure that allows my dog to work for 12-15 hours a day and one that conforms to some show ring demand. Why would I waste my time and efforts and money to try to show a dog to someone who only cares how my dog looks?

While you are asking though...just because the show side cannot breed a dog that works, why does the working side, NOT the sport side have to suffer? When was the last time you seen a dog in any ring that looked like the original standard of this breed?  Yes, indeed the breed was a working breed, but, no matter how many times its said, it wont be understood...the idea that you can eliminate show and sports dogs, repair the schism that has taken place for the past maybe 40 years, is just a dream, unless you create a communist country where the govnt controls all breeding, the GSD breed as one is done, forever.

Sorry, I forgot and thought you only had a Mal. I'll try to not ask you again.

Its ok dear, you showed your colors when I just found out you had me blocked. I was going to ask you something about my dog, but...I will try to get over it.

'If the working people do not exhibit their dogs how are they going to assess the anatomical necessities and benefits required by the breed standard in it's endeavours to provide the stamina and energy levels of a working breed.'
Mac, have you looked at what the dogs being shown for many generations under the SV are?

'Just because the working side cannot breed to the prescribed standard it is not a good enough to excuse to split the breed and call it two breeds when it is one and the same.'
The breeders of gsd for actual work and not dogs to compete in the conformation ring and IPO competition know better than to breed for single purpose, excluding all other attributes required of a working dog. It's not a matter of CANNOT BREED TO, but a matter of having the goal to Maintain a WORKING BREED despite the SV. Look what breeding to the SV requirements has created...and all that stuff about it being because pups from WL are trained from beginning of life and so turn out good dogs, and that pups from SL are raised in pet homes so don't get a chance to turn out good is malarky. One for my pups was in a pet home with a retired k9 handler...they assured me they'd train her. They never did any basic training because she was 'so good and never a problem'....till she was a year old. They then boarded her at sixteen months with me for two weeks while on vacation. The dog couldn't walk on a leash from the car to my kennel without great difficulty. I offered to obedience train her while she was with me. They didn't want to spend the extra ten dollars a day...said they'd train her when they got home. Yeah, right. After the dog and family got back home the wife put a prong on the dog , first time for both, gave the leash a pop, and the dog came up the lead at her. The woman did it again, dog came up and grabbed woman by the thigh. I got call from the hysterical woman, got the dog back in my kennel and I commenced basic obedience training with her. A very strong female, soaked up training like a sponge, and through a close friend with connections, we placed her as a PSD, and she became an apprehension dog.
So, Mac, it's ALL about GENETICS, not so much the upbringing whether a pet home with lazy owners, or a professional trainer as to what the difference in single purpose show or sport bred dogs and the dogs bred for multipurpose.