I think treat training is cruel. - Page 8

hund, if I was preparing a dog for a trial, any venue, I would use the totally focus on me, wrap around my leg, get points method.

if planning on dog accompanying me on 3 mil walks on busy trail, trips to large stores that allow dogs, looking for repair parts for my sink, this behavior would be very annoying and probably result in dog being left at home or in car.

I just think there are now people who do not realize there was an "old" method and that it produced good results and good dogs to live with.

and just for the record, I think using whatever the dog responds best to is the best method. treats, toy, voice, touch, whatever.

jmo,
Rik

The "wrap around the leg" time is long gone. Today you loose a lot of points for it...
Today it's the "focussed" heeling-for me a stupid trend, but on a normal trial no dog will loose points for correct, old fashioned heeling.
You are talking about the few douzends of dogs trialed on National/International level, but you forget about the thousands of "normal" trained dogs.

This is nothing new and has been used by dog trainers, more or less for a hundred years...only perhaps with different verbiage. What is different now is a bit less use of negative reinforcers and punishment for issues like in Koehlers time in mid last century....the so called yank and crank.

Jesse, you seems skipped word "millennia" in my previous post.
the dogs was trained many thousands year, before Pavlov, Skinner or Koehler were born.
in training overall, you seems do ignore most important part of it - prolonged test by the training itself, for purpose, for which that dog being trained. during the training for practical use, you not only teaching the dog to execute certain tasks but at same time testing the dog's suitability to be reliable in performance by creating and utilizing harsh psychological pressure and conditions.

Rik

That's a bit extreme. Any dog that does sport isn't asked to do those things in every day Life. That's why some people crate/kennel when not working, but not because they're annoying. You can use different commands for everyday obedience vs on the field. For example, instead of here, you use come, which isn't asking for the dog to bolt and sit in front of you, but be near or follow.

The dogs know when they are on the field and off. When they're going tracking, and when they're being pulled out for bitework.

Valk said:
Jesse, you seems skipped word "millennia" in my previous post.
the dogs was trained many thousands year, before Pavlov, Skinner or Koehler were born.
in training overall, you seems do ignore most important part of it - prolonged test by the training itself, for purpose, for which that dog being trained. during the training for practical use, you not only teaching the dog to execute certain tasks but at same time testing the dog's suitability to be reliable in performance by creating and utilizing harsh psychological pressure and conditions.

Millennia. Sure, dogs have been trained/taught by man longer than we even know.  A lot of teaching of dogs is intuitive...thank goodness dogs are smart and often learn, despite our poor attempts to communicate what we want from them.

Also, often they learned not only from humans, but also by copying older dogs...as in herding and herd protection. Young pups were simply allowed to run with an older experienced dog.

I am also pretty sure, that some very unsavory or crueler methods might have been used. That we don‘t need to do today anymore.

I don‘t really understand why one should not want to use more modern day knowledge. We are lucky to have more leisure  in our lifetime, so that we can do more fun things with our dogs. Why not? 

Our dogs lives are also more complicated today and the dogs need to adjust to society in very strict and tight rules, especially if you live in an urban area. So a different training is needed. I remember as a kid, seeing dogs with freedom to roam the streets, go visit their dog pals, and go home at dinner time again. None of this is possible anymore.

Many dogs today never have the freedom to be off leash except for in their own yards or at  dog parks. Terrible in my opinion. I believe off leash time with an owner, out and about, is so important to train and build character in a dog. I‘ve said it before...but maybe this is a reason so many  dogs are fearful today ...they can never be themselves anymore. Make their own decisions, at least sometimes. Food for thought.

Valk, I did not go into detail about proofing and testing in different conditions because the topic was food treat training. 

But yes, I proof my dogs every single day...all the time. On leash and off leash, which I prefer, and in the most extreme conditions I can find. Just today I was out in the rain, on a slippery muddy hillside, and had to call my dog to help me down safely. He came to my call from about 100 yrds away, where he and other dogs were playing on the beach below,  and ran up to help me down by doing a tight contact heel and allowing me to lean on him, and hold stock still on cue, when I need solid non moving support as well. This was very complicated because the hillside was filled with old fallen logs as well as slick mud . I have taught him the cue for this as  „Help me“ which we practice in all conditions. It‘s training that I have taylored  to my needs and I do it all over the place and every place I can think of. Just one example....and probably  more than you wanted to know.

 

So JJ I assure you that not all herding dogs are trained by copying older dogs. Such a notion is totally not true so please do not pass it as if it would be. Also, I feel that your premise that someone does not want to use a more modern method is false. Of course if one looks deeper such so-called modern methods are not that modern and also it is true that if they are modern that they are automatically better then past methods would. I would like to actually know what are those modern methods and principles of dog training ? If one looks into it they are all based on knowledge thousands of years old. The positive and negative reinforcement and punishemnt worked thousands of years ago just as well as they work now when scientists gave it names and put it on the paper. the fact is that if it worked it had to use same - what we now arrogantly call - modern principles of training. Thus what you call intuitive training of the past just because it was done in a time long ago does not make it wrong. As a matter of fact, I think it is arrogant to think that training methods which worked and were proved by practical means and lives of people depended on it for thousands of years are all inferior to what we know and use now as so-called modern methods.

Ok Prager, for crying out loud, do I say that ALL herding dogs learn from older dogs? You read what you want to read into it. 

I KNOW that in some cases, young dogs are left with older dogs to learn the trade, a young apprentice dog, so to speak for herd protection. There is NO doubt about that. As it has been done historically for centuries. I don‘t know where you get your info that that is not true, but your info is false.

What the heck have I been talking about here page after page? Marker Training is relatively new in training. This type of systematic training, is not thousands of years old. That’s just absurd to say that.

Where did I say that old ways and intuitive ways are not good? I said the excess negative reinforcement and punishment often used in the past is not good. Intuitive is ALWAYS good. Working with a dog, understanding a dogs motivation in order to use it as training is always good and can be done in many different ways. YES THAT has been used historically. ...But not systematic marker training as it is done today. That is relatively new. AND a great tool.

Think whatever you want...train however you want. Don’t care.  I think I‘m done here.





 

Jesse, i'm not well versed in english but unsavory/cruel and harsh seems not the same.
sure, the dog can be trained with emphasis on exclusively positive methods... for entertaining purpose, just for fun. but i doubt that dog, who cannot handle stress of correction from handler, would be able to handle stress/pressure from aggressive stranger in life threatening situation.
and yes, i did live in society, where dogs can free roam but never let my dogs to do this due to concern for dog's well being.

OK jessejones,I have written an elaborate response to you but then I decided not to post it so and erased it. I believe most of it between us is a misunderstanding of what I am trying to say. Which is that not all we see is what it seems and that there are different perspectives which we can look at the same isuue and that what is true is impossible to grasp and thqat the training and because of all that people should be careful to condemn other people's training based on what it appears to be on the surface. Probably a tall order.
Anyway, thank you for your permission graciously given to me by you to think whatever I want and train anyway I want.
And I too am done here.
Peace.

Susie, actually I was referring much more to the 'normal' dogs, trained by Joe Bloggs for local competition through the small clubs, than I was to National or International competitors of any nation, 'cos that is what I have seen more of, over the years. Real dogs, real contests, not videos of the top level ...

I'm glad you think all that nonsense has "had it's day"; maybe in Germany, notsomuch over here as yet, as far as I can see (but then I admit to gradually getting more & more 'out of touch' since I get out less !)  I still think, though, that focussed heelwork with the dog constantly gazing upwards does result in a more 'wrap around' action than old-style Heeling. That is inevitable, surely ?  And yes, Rik, I understand that you probably would run with it, if you were in competition, since that is where the points are and you'd, as anyone would, like to win. But competitors all followed each other there, like sheep - don't you basically think that is a pity ?