Working to get my dog to get more serious - Page 8

Thanks Centurion. Yes, I would like to compete with my dog in PSA as mentioned earlier so hopefully the club I will be attending will help me clean up my act. I always knew I was the weaker link of our team as I am not the best trainer (far from it), and I do have a good dog and he maybe trying to figure out what it is that I am asking him to do. Also, one note - I never taught him to retrieve - he always did it on his own. As far as using a less desirable object to practice the "aus" - no issues he has no problems with it - but you take out a sleeve or a ball - game on!

Juno In order to teach children .. we have to be 'child like'. That is to say : to see and feel the world as they do and talk in such away, in their terms, such that they can understand. We also have to understand what they say[ or at times don't say in words ]. The same holds true for dogs. I think that you are writing that he has less motivation to let a ball or sleeve go , I am I correct.

So I want you to hear and see what the dog is saying to you . He is telling you that he has a preference for those, he is motivated more to keep a ball /sleeve and to posses those items. So if you read my previous posts .. then you should be able to predict my next comment : If those items are what he desires and are motivated for .... then that is what you use to teach him with . This is what I do . Have two balls each on a rope. let him bite one. Tug a bit then freeze up . Take the second ball on a rope out of your pocket and l it around and let him get wound up enough to have interest and bite the second ball on a rope. then play tug tug tug . Freeze up and then do the same with the first ball . To end the back and forth ball biting , then one time he let's go of the ball keep both away. The sleeve .. I never ever force my dog off a bite . I know the old way was to take the leash and force the dog forward into the sleeve to have the dog open it's mouth to come off. But what I have found another way is to offer the dog when he is on one sleeve a second sleeve to bite just like playing with the ball . Now if you do that ball routine , after so many sessions you add the cue and the dog will look forward to that cue when biting the first ball in order to bite the second ball . Just make sure he does mot anticipate . The ball work will translate to the sleeve work too with most dogs. Also with most dogs the out on the sleeve will be look forward to , because that bis also paired with the dog getting another bite on a sleeve , which is motivating to the dog , Yes ? !

If the dog has a natural , innate predisposition to bring something back to you . You should be teaching the 'retrieve ' from the end step to the beginning step . That is to say you should be teaching the dog to take something from you and hold it i it's mouth and give it back to you first . then place the object at your feet have the dog pick it up , hold , then on cue give it to you . Last step is to do all that but having thrown the object from you . So .. what you need in order to teach a good retrieve is to have the dog out , an out anything from it's mouth .. including , ball , sleeve . Then go on to teaching a retrieve. This is what the dog is telling you if you take the time to listen as if you would be listening to a child . So at the club.. they can help you . I wished to share my input for you , whatever value it may or may not have .. I think you have a dam good dog and want you to succeed !!

Centurian, that can work with average dog but pavlov's reflex not really works in every case.
also you skipped the cleverness of dog to quickly figure out deceiveness of substitution.

yogidog, no doubt - the earlier one start to work pup, the smoother progress will go with more assured outcome. 
but dogs are very different and what will work with one, might no go with another. 
below is excerpt from old soviet video about "Red star" kennel. in short - the cut shows some testing to see dog's 
attitude toward stranger, who's trying to take away bowl with food. prior the test the dogs must be deprived of any food for couple days.
in this video both dogs doing well but difference between them also very obvious.

juno after your description of dog's actions, i'm curious, what is your definition/view on term "serious" in application to dogs?

Valk iv have never came across a dog that will not work for his dinner. Even when lower food drive dog will get the message because the one the every breeding animal needs is food. Even with aggressive dog I can win them over with food. Iv had dogs in my kennels that I could not go into and iv set out side a fed these dog day after day until we build some trust. When u take time to feed a dog from your hand you build respect, trust and an understanding and it does not take long for a dog to realise he needs you to survive and when that happens then you will have focus and then you work together and I can do this at anytime of a dogs life. I could not watch the video Internet to slow I'll try again later.

Centurion, thanks again. Yes, I have a pretty good dog. Valk, serious in my definition is how a dog reacts to a person, who is not wearing protective gear (i.e. suit, sleeve), outside of his home or in an area he is not familiar with. Yes, I would expect a dog to show territorial aggression - that should be normal (and my dog has tonnes of that - maybe even to a fault some might say as he wont even tolerate birds besides the lawn guy..). As I had mentioned before - we go out running early in the morning when it is still dark and one day one of our neighbors (not next door to us but from our community) decided to start walking at the same hour and he had a hoodie on, my dog locked in on him from a distance and dragged me towards him - the first day he barked (one of the deep barks), and his tail was up but no hackles - when I saw how it was and told him to stop barking - he did but still wanted to confront him. The next time he saw him he did not bark but still wanted to approach him. Also, when he sees a stranger on the street walking towards us he approaches them quite boldly (not aggressive) and his tail is always up but his mouth is closed - he is not being a social butterfly. In general, when I stop and talk to people he will investigate them but then be very aloof but position himself where he can keep an eye on them. He has only been aggressive towards strangers twice - the one time that I mentioned above, and a second time when we were walking through the woods and someone came out without me paying attention and he reacted very aggressively - deep bark and lunging towards. When I realized there was no threat we actually conversed and he was fine and sat next to me but kind of kept an eye on him. Lastly, in my quest to find a place to train I have gone to several places to have him evaluated and in all cases in strange locations with strange decoys he has had no problem biting the sleeve and prior to that just barking aggressively at the decoy even without the sleeve - this one may chart to him kind of figuring out why we were there - so not sure. One more thing - he has this stare (which we call the raptor look) which he at times locks on certain people that might approach us, my wife, or the car with us in it, he is not barking, has his mouth close but just locks on and just has this penetrating look - which kinbd of says - "come on". I maybe totally off - but this is what I call serious.

Valk I don't understand what you the concept or idea you were trying to express in that video . What I see is a dog hungry , being defensed while it is eating .. In that case, where a dog is threatened or defensed I would expect the dog to want to guard it's food and or to protect its meal if feeling the need ,- or the dog to do both , guard and protect itself and his food . That is not what I had described. If you or are I were starving/ severely hungry , would we not also do the same as that dog did in the video ?

In reference to what I had previously wrote.. I wrote in the respect and intention that one would be interacting and dealing with a Normal Genetic Based , A Normal** Temperamental Canine [ even if it was a canine very most high in Hardness , Aggression and Stress levels ] . If one has a canine that cannot even with severe hunger be conditioned , then I seriously question the normality of that dog. In simple street talk- one may be very high in possibility and probability , that one is dealing with a whacked out , unstable canine , genetically unsound dog [ which a good number I have seen in my lifetime ].. In that case one to compare a unsound dog with a sound dog in a discussion is not reasonable because they are two entirely different canines .

  Juno by writing to you .. kep in mnd that there are thousands of people also reading the posts. Your plight is a good learning experience for many others too.   Also Juno I want to bring sometrhing up  that imop is importyant : Suspicion level in dogs .There IMOp a is a certain quaity that goes with quantity and a correct way to defelop that within a dog or to have it in the dog genetically. I think many people miss this because they go through routines, boler plate training with thrier dogs without paying atention to what is exactly taking place  . IMOP there is healthy and also unhealthy types of suspicion.  To exacggerate a bit.. I don't want my dog to see every Tom and Harry and upon seeong them lower his head and give the 'I am going to take tou out ' stare. How Can I liken this : eveytime I go into a restaurant with my wife I Always sit such that I can position myslef in the most strageic postion whereby I can see , observe evey single person and  everyhting that is going on.  So , there is a difference in being in ' mindful situational awarenenes ' [ in the moment], calm , cool , comfortable , confident and relaxed as opposed to goiung in a festaurant and bening a paranoid wreck that soemthing is about to happenand I cannot trust anyone at anytime. There comes a point wereby a person can become psychotic , and emotional wreck internally. Yes we can be of a serious make up and be ' MINDFUL"  , but when our emotional state becomes abnormal or we cannot  re-setin life , that is not normal .  Unlike other people , my life , I live with my dogs and they ive with me .. they are not kennel dogs that work , kennel and work . Yhey live in life with me . So for me this is impo rtant !! What I wrote  also can be true of dogs too ..Again something to think about. 

 Yogi    - two thumbs up !! [ don't know how to add emoji's]. Liked your last post !

yogidog, it's not about earning just dog's leniency and tolerance.
rather about gaining enough of respect in dog's eyes to be able to control even most serious dog.
and that can be very challenging, particularly when dealing with young adult or adult dog.

Centurian, just to show how differently under stress, different dogs can act.
not hard to note, the second dog, even when actively reacting on interference, yet still remember
about food and combine defense with consumption.
contrary, first dog, upon facing adversary and becoming agitated, even being very hungry, don't give
a damn about food. does such dog should be considered "genetic failure"? i don't think so but control
over this type of temperament, without absolute unquestionable authority, won't be possible.
question how to gain control, if most likely neither rewards or reflexes won't work?

Centurion, no worries my dog is no "Dirty Harry" or "Outlaw Josey Wales" although I love those characters. I have walked with him in plazas, my neighbor doing his yard, kids on skateboards, bikes, joggers and he just gives them a glance and moves on. We even play in a park next to an elementary school and the little kids in after school want to pet him and want to know his name - and he is quite fine - very aloof, could care less. This "raptor look" happens typically when we are by our selves and there is a lone individual approaching, or we are in my car and folks come close to take a closer look at my car - mostly guys or young men. Other than that, people can walk by our car and no issues. So yes, he does have a degree of discernment, also it is very possible he is picking up my vibes under the circumstances described above. Finally, when we have friends and family visiting after the introductions are over he typically finds a place to lie down so as not to be in the way or be bothered. Did I mention, he is not a social butterfly.

OK Val
I have a better understanding now.

---- " upon facing adversary and becoming agitated, even being very hungry, don't give
a damn about food. does such dog should be considered "genetic failure"?---

Val , if that is like the video in your previous post I would say with no other factors involved : NO ! Because , the context /situation is that the dog was threatened** . He was not in that sense blood thirsty . . And if you think about that : what would be the difference between that dog's behavior and the behavior of a wolf when it is eating it's kill and simultaneously being threatened by another animal . This is normal and natural behavior : to defend yourself because it isl self preservation . If the dog or the wolf when being attacked / threatened did not opt to defend then it wouldn't last so long would it ? I never alluded to the fact that we should not have absolute control and authority over a dog , or our children ! The difference is how we get absolute authority over the dog. I have seen some of my friends put 3 e collars on the dog to control it and fail .. But .. the big but is .. that a dog that you have to put 3 e collars on to control it is to me an unsound genetically flawed canine. But if they listened to me .. i believe I could have gotten through to those dogs too to a degree , even though they they would not be 100% reliable , [ but I could work them off a bite in some contexts ]. I have seen dogs so high in aggression , so intense on the bite you literally could see their eyes roll back into their head. So , if the dogs you talk about are on par with these.. there is little help for them because they are unsound.. We cannot correct unsoundness but a sound dog we can channel and teach even the very very high aggressive ones.

One time I ran out of dog food and couldn't in the morning feed my dog ,who had it's last meal at dinner . I had emergencies to content to all day , So at sundown the next day I was feeding him . As the bowl went down to the ground my dog , ignored the dog and dashed for the ball ! If that dog went after a non threatening man or a man that we did not send the dog onto , we talk we start taking about genetics/temperament . If we send the dog and it won't come off the bite there is a strong genetic component to that behavior. However I believe I can get a normal dog sooner or later off the bite with all factors being equal . If the dog is temperament deficient or abnormal , then it is not within expectations to expect normal behavior from an abnormal dog- the dog in plain English is not 'right' in the head .

absolute interesting discussion, but in the end a dog doesnot need to be trained to be more serious, prefer a dog that will bite naturally, but can be trained not to, over a dog that will not bite naturally, but might be trained to do so,

If that would be called unsound by some Im fine with that.

just got a 6 months old pup from my breeding back, unsound for sport because he prefers to bite helper over the sleeve LOL

what is the world coming to, this type of dog will work nice in prey and needs small trigger to switch to civil, guaranteed streetdog, but undesirable in todays sport and pet breeding