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by seenitb4 on 13 November 2012 - 15:11
Unknown, did you read the post you are commenting on? For years there were no SV judges judging USCA Sieger Shows or any of their conformation shows. (That was kinda the point.)
Now I am out. Have at it. Commenting on just about any post on this board is a waste of my time.
Now I am out. Have at it. Commenting on just about any post on this board is a waste of my time.
by OGBS on 13 November 2012 - 15:11
If those of you whining about this are so ignorant as to show up at a trial without knowing the qualifications of the judge, that is entirely on you.
"I can only begin to imagine the outrage if members of USCA were trialing for judges who were giving them Schutzhund titles that were meaningless."
How could the titles be meaningless??? UScA has its own judges program that has been in place for 30+ years.
And, while on that subject, how many of you that are so concerned with your SV recognized show rating think you will ever show a dog in Germany or sell a puppy to a German?
Are some of you really that naive to think that Johannes thought up this whole thing to take over the GSD show world in this country? Wow!
The real reason this came about was that the members of the executive board mimicked exactly what your precious SV did in Germany by making the exact same rule to keep out those that had followed Helmut Raiser to RSV2000. Knowing this now all of you whiners should join the UScA because it followed suit with the all knowing and perfect SV.
Speaking of the SV, do any of the whiners here know how many SV judges are presently under investigation for awarding fake titles to countless numbers of dogs?
"I can only begin to imagine the outrage if members of USCA were trialing for judges who were giving them Schutzhund titles that were meaningless."
How could the titles be meaningless??? UScA has its own judges program that has been in place for 30+ years.
And, while on that subject, how many of you that are so concerned with your SV recognized show rating think you will ever show a dog in Germany or sell a puppy to a German?
Are some of you really that naive to think that Johannes thought up this whole thing to take over the GSD show world in this country? Wow!
The real reason this came about was that the members of the executive board mimicked exactly what your precious SV did in Germany by making the exact same rule to keep out those that had followed Helmut Raiser to RSV2000. Knowing this now all of you whiners should join the UScA because it followed suit with the all knowing and perfect SV.
Speaking of the SV, do any of the whiners here know how many SV judges are presently under investigation for awarding fake titles to countless numbers of dogs?
by Unknown on 13 November 2012 - 15:11
seenitb4 wrote:
"Unknown, did you read the post you are commenting on? For years there were no SV judges judging USCA Sieger Shows or any of their conformation shows. (That was kinda the point.)"
Seenit...if that was the point then maybe you should have said that. What You said:
"Well OBGS I can think of one thing you couldn't do at a USCA event. And that was get a RECOGNIZED conformation rating for your dog"
and that statement is not correct. That was my only point. Just like WDA you have to choose events with SV judges to get it recognized and that is possible at UScA events.
This coming year's SS is having 2 SV judges as of right now and those rating will be recognized.
"Unknown, did you read the post you are commenting on? For years there were no SV judges judging USCA Sieger Shows or any of their conformation shows. (That was kinda the point.)"
Seenit...if that was the point then maybe you should have said that. What You said:
"Well OBGS I can think of one thing you couldn't do at a USCA event. And that was get a RECOGNIZED conformation rating for your dog"
and that statement is not correct. That was my only point. Just like WDA you have to choose events with SV judges to get it recognized and that is possible at UScA events.
This coming year's SS is having 2 SV judges as of right now and those rating will be recognized.
by Kevin Nance on 13 November 2012 - 16:11
Seenitb4,
For the last several years, ONE class, male or female was judged at the UScA Sieger Show by a USca Judge and the other ALWAYS by an SV judge. The desire was not the aggrandizement of one individual but simply the desire by the entire organization to develop its own core of (hopefully) capable judges.
Johannes, as you assert, is not the driver nor sole beneficiary of this goal. Judges for any National event are approved by the executive board via a yearly vote.
Johannes was also not the driver of the so called JA. He was merely the author as directed by the executive board in an action later ratified and sustained by the membership at large. And, Johannes is no longer a member of the executive board further diluting your argument that it was designed for individual aggrandizement.
Only one member of the original line officers who advocated for individuals to make a choice between "competing" organizations remains in office; yet, the rule stands as an indication of the overwhelming desire of UScA's membership.
Further, UScA supports all breeds and their owners who share common values regarding the benefits of breeding properly titled dogs of correct temperament, health, and structure. This is on display yearly at the ALL BREED Working Dog Championship one of two National Championships sponsored by the organization.
Our Rottie, Malinois, and other friends who choose UScA affiliation in conjunction with their particular breed club do so to take advantage of the number, quality, and integrity of UScA's events supported by a very expensive to maintain judges program and college that is well recognized and respected by the SV and FCI. UScA fully supports their endeavours.
The JA merely brings UScA in to alignment with every other German Shepherd Dog Club in every other WUSV country each of whom only has one recognized breed club; the United States is the sole anomaly and we suffer for this division in diminished influence. Our international friends are only too happy to see this division continue lest we have a greater say on events on the World stage.
Making a choice does not usurp "freedom." Not unlike our recent presidential election we are each "free" to choose who or what party/organization best supports our individual needs.
I lastly assure you there is not one member of UScA's executive board that has any misgivings regarding the individual members of the WDA nor wishes to see them disenfranchised. The "issue" is with the structure of the GSDCA and WDA and how the former has regualrly usurped any positive inroads between UScA and WDA in support of their "vision" of what the breed should be.
UScA does not operate under this encumberance and does not require "permission" from a much larger parent organization for its very existence. This fact along with the scale, infrastructure, and overall (albeit never perfect) integrity offered within the UScA is why its membership is by many multiples larger than WDA's and in fact all other breed clubs combined. It is on these merits that I and thousands of others have made our personal choice.
Best,
Kevin
For the last several years, ONE class, male or female was judged at the UScA Sieger Show by a USca Judge and the other ALWAYS by an SV judge. The desire was not the aggrandizement of one individual but simply the desire by the entire organization to develop its own core of (hopefully) capable judges.
Johannes, as you assert, is not the driver nor sole beneficiary of this goal. Judges for any National event are approved by the executive board via a yearly vote.
Johannes was also not the driver of the so called JA. He was merely the author as directed by the executive board in an action later ratified and sustained by the membership at large. And, Johannes is no longer a member of the executive board further diluting your argument that it was designed for individual aggrandizement.
Only one member of the original line officers who advocated for individuals to make a choice between "competing" organizations remains in office; yet, the rule stands as an indication of the overwhelming desire of UScA's membership.
Further, UScA supports all breeds and their owners who share common values regarding the benefits of breeding properly titled dogs of correct temperament, health, and structure. This is on display yearly at the ALL BREED Working Dog Championship one of two National Championships sponsored by the organization.
Our Rottie, Malinois, and other friends who choose UScA affiliation in conjunction with their particular breed club do so to take advantage of the number, quality, and integrity of UScA's events supported by a very expensive to maintain judges program and college that is well recognized and respected by the SV and FCI. UScA fully supports their endeavours.
The JA merely brings UScA in to alignment with every other German Shepherd Dog Club in every other WUSV country each of whom only has one recognized breed club; the United States is the sole anomaly and we suffer for this division in diminished influence. Our international friends are only too happy to see this division continue lest we have a greater say on events on the World stage.
Making a choice does not usurp "freedom." Not unlike our recent presidential election we are each "free" to choose who or what party/organization best supports our individual needs.
I lastly assure you there is not one member of UScA's executive board that has any misgivings regarding the individual members of the WDA nor wishes to see them disenfranchised. The "issue" is with the structure of the GSDCA and WDA and how the former has regualrly usurped any positive inroads between UScA and WDA in support of their "vision" of what the breed should be.
UScA does not operate under this encumberance and does not require "permission" from a much larger parent organization for its very existence. This fact along with the scale, infrastructure, and overall (albeit never perfect) integrity offered within the UScA is why its membership is by many multiples larger than WDA's and in fact all other breed clubs combined. It is on these merits that I and thousands of others have made our personal choice.
Best,
Kevin
by judron55 on 13 November 2012 - 16:11
just 4 weeks ago, the president of GSDCA/WDA tried to have the representative of UScA removed from the WUSV meeting...unsuccessfully, I might add....why would UScA want any of its' members blonging to an organization that wants its' demise....this is not the first time this has been attempted....sounds like SV vs RSV2000
We are having the WUSV in America this year.....oh boy
We are having the WUSV in America this year.....oh boy
by VKGSDs on 13 November 2012 - 16:11
I am a USCA member and I participate in WDA shows to get show cards and dental certifications from SV judges on ALL my dogs (WORKING lines too). I'm not the only one who does this. I'm not defending the WDA because I'm not a member of that organization and quite frankly I find them even more deplorable than USCA at the moment, but it's not true that they have nothing to offer.
ETA: I don't get WDA show cards because I want dogs recognized in Germany, but a show card or title from an SV judge can go either way. The USCA simply doesn't offer even half the amount of shows that WDA does in my area (and I'm not really a "show" person, I've attended many shows but enter my own dogs maybe once every two years to get the ratings I need) and when they do they often are NOT SV judges. I can simply enter a nearby WDA show as a non-member, get my cards and dentals from SV judges, and now I can do breed surveys later on with ANY organization, if I want to. I'm doing a USCA breed survey this weekend and the show card and BH are from SV judges while the IPO title and AD are from USCA judges. As for the WDA and USCA being in the same predicament as far as judges that may be true on paper but often isn't reality. I've been to a lot of WDA events over the years and I've never NOT seen an SV judge. For years I did not even realized that the WDA had their own judging program. I have seen SV judges at USCA events but it's far, far more common to see a USCA or USCA/SV judge at a USCA event. In my area, participating in a WDA event is guaranteed SV judging and thus a card or title I can use in either organization, should I choose to do so. The USCA is the org that keeps talking about how they are aligned with the SV rather than the GSDCA but then people come on here and poo-poo getting SV cards and titles that will stand up anywhere....so which is it?
Sorry but the people who've only ever done USCA stuff and thus wouldn't see the point in doing anything else don't speak for those of us who routinely enter events by both clubs. If you think conformation is stupid that's fine but you don't speak for many of us (working line people!) who do it. Don't make blanket statements about what the USCA offers when you've never participated in anything else. I've participated in just about every all-breed dogs sport organization (other than DVG, since you cannot join without a club now) in this country (I'm talking way beyond just IPO and SV conformation organizations..AKC, UKC, SV, WDA, USCA, SDA, RKNA, AHBA, CPE, APDT, NAFA, U-Fli, ATTS, UAD.....) and they all have *something* to offer me. Incidentally, USCA is the only one of these dozens of clubs that tries to tell me what other clubs I can belong to and what paperwork I'm allowed to have. FWIW I am a current card-carrying USCA member participating in a USCA event in three days.
ETA: I don't get WDA show cards because I want dogs recognized in Germany, but a show card or title from an SV judge can go either way. The USCA simply doesn't offer even half the amount of shows that WDA does in my area (and I'm not really a "show" person, I've attended many shows but enter my own dogs maybe once every two years to get the ratings I need) and when they do they often are NOT SV judges. I can simply enter a nearby WDA show as a non-member, get my cards and dentals from SV judges, and now I can do breed surveys later on with ANY organization, if I want to. I'm doing a USCA breed survey this weekend and the show card and BH are from SV judges while the IPO title and AD are from USCA judges. As for the WDA and USCA being in the same predicament as far as judges that may be true on paper but often isn't reality. I've been to a lot of WDA events over the years and I've never NOT seen an SV judge. For years I did not even realized that the WDA had their own judging program. I have seen SV judges at USCA events but it's far, far more common to see a USCA or USCA/SV judge at a USCA event. In my area, participating in a WDA event is guaranteed SV judging and thus a card or title I can use in either organization, should I choose to do so. The USCA is the org that keeps talking about how they are aligned with the SV rather than the GSDCA but then people come on here and poo-poo getting SV cards and titles that will stand up anywhere....so which is it?
Sorry but the people who've only ever done USCA stuff and thus wouldn't see the point in doing anything else don't speak for those of us who routinely enter events by both clubs. If you think conformation is stupid that's fine but you don't speak for many of us (working line people!) who do it. Don't make blanket statements about what the USCA offers when you've never participated in anything else. I've participated in just about every all-breed dogs sport organization (other than DVG, since you cannot join without a club now) in this country (I'm talking way beyond just IPO and SV conformation organizations..AKC, UKC, SV, WDA, USCA, SDA, RKNA, AHBA, CPE, APDT, NAFA, U-Fli, ATTS, UAD.....) and they all have *something* to offer me. Incidentally, USCA is the only one of these dozens of clubs that tries to tell me what other clubs I can belong to and what paperwork I'm allowed to have. FWIW I am a current card-carrying USCA member participating in a USCA event in three days.
by seby on 13 November 2012 - 16:11
@VKGSDs
My point exactly.
My point exactly.
by Agassiz1 on 13 November 2012 - 17:11
I guess that after reading everything here I will have to retain my WDA membership so I can enter NASS, even after this years mess, and I will have to retain my GSDCA membership although I disagree with it on so many levels so that I can enter the UScA Sieger Show. That's all I am interested in doing, showing my dogs. I leave the rest to you all.
david
david
by Keith Grossman on 13 November 2012 - 17:11
"And all of you breeders will still send checks to AKC and support them financially because you have no other choice!"
This raises an interesting question for those who support the JA on the basis of the disagreement with the AKC/GSDCA's adherence to the breed standard: why do you continue to support the organization by registering your dogs with them rather than simply registering with the UScA?
This raises an interesting question for those who support the JA on the basis of the disagreement with the AKC/GSDCA's adherence to the breed standard: why do you continue to support the organization by registering your dogs with them rather than simply registering with the UScA?
by Mystere on 13 November 2012 - 18:11
EXCELLENT posts, OGBS and Kevin.
One thing I hear incessantly is the "This is America, and I won't allow anyone to limit my choice." Hmmm, when was the last time you went to a restaurant that offered both Pepsi and Coke? Can you vote in your state's primary for both major political parties? Do you subscribe to one religious doctrine (e.g. Catholic ) and attend Muslim mosques on a regular basis? How often do the Christians among us attend temple? How about those speed limits? Do you really drive 50 mph through a school zone as your choice? This IS America and there are all kinds of rules and limits on each and every one of us every day. Violating many of them can result in fines and imprisonment. Citizen though you may be, one of your "choices" could result in a charge of treason and land you in prison, or worse. Limits on our choices are everywhere, from the "so- small -you- barely -notice" (choice of Coke or Pepsi) to life-alteringly serious--like treason.
If you choose to support WDA and GSDCA, so be it. That is your preference and choice; you are welcome to make it, as is anyone. I choose to be a member of USCA, and give that organization my time, money, volunteer efforts and loyalty. If USCA didn't exist, and never had, how many non-gsd folks would have anywhere to train, trial or title? Would even WDA exist, had USCA not been created?
How many of the non-gsd working breed clubs would even exist? Which of the current AWMA clubs did not make use of USCA's policies and programs, often simply adopted verbatim (why re-invent the wheel?). How many have a judge's program that does not virtually depend on USCA's well-established and well-respected judges' program? How many depend on USCA members, clubs and judges for their breed championships? For some non-gsd owners, that is why they have no issue with the "JA" [sic]. What has WDA ever done for them?
Kevin quite correctly points out the the sobriquet "JA--Johannes Amendment" was not the brain-child of Johannes Grewe. He was simply the one designated to attach his name to it for purposes of proposing the amendment. Frankly, the amendment could (and probably should have) been the proposal of the entire Executive Board at the time. That is where the amendment came from. Johannes was not the one that the Bylaws Committee had to discuss changes and collateral changes with, either. Johannes simply agreed to allow his name to be used as the proponent. Now, he is vilified for a bylaw provision that he didn't actually author in the first place. (NOT that I feel sorry for him!)
One thing I hear incessantly is the "This is America, and I won't allow anyone to limit my choice." Hmmm, when was the last time you went to a restaurant that offered both Pepsi and Coke? Can you vote in your state's primary for both major political parties? Do you subscribe to one religious doctrine (e.g. Catholic ) and attend Muslim mosques on a regular basis? How often do the Christians among us attend temple? How about those speed limits? Do you really drive 50 mph through a school zone as your choice? This IS America and there are all kinds of rules and limits on each and every one of us every day. Violating many of them can result in fines and imprisonment. Citizen though you may be, one of your "choices" could result in a charge of treason and land you in prison, or worse. Limits on our choices are everywhere, from the "so- small -you- barely -notice" (choice of Coke or Pepsi) to life-alteringly serious--like treason.
If you choose to support WDA and GSDCA, so be it. That is your preference and choice; you are welcome to make it, as is anyone. I choose to be a member of USCA, and give that organization my time, money, volunteer efforts and loyalty. If USCA didn't exist, and never had, how many non-gsd folks would have anywhere to train, trial or title? Would even WDA exist, had USCA not been created?
How many of the non-gsd working breed clubs would even exist? Which of the current AWMA clubs did not make use of USCA's policies and programs, often simply adopted verbatim (why re-invent the wheel?). How many have a judge's program that does not virtually depend on USCA's well-established and well-respected judges' program? How many depend on USCA members, clubs and judges for their breed championships? For some non-gsd owners, that is why they have no issue with the "JA" [sic]. What has WDA ever done for them?
Kevin quite correctly points out the the sobriquet "JA--Johannes Amendment" was not the brain-child of Johannes Grewe. He was simply the one designated to attach his name to it for purposes of proposing the amendment. Frankly, the amendment could (and probably should have) been the proposal of the entire Executive Board at the time. That is where the amendment came from. Johannes was not the one that the Bylaws Committee had to discuss changes and collateral changes with, either. Johannes simply agreed to allow his name to be used as the proponent. Now, he is vilified for a bylaw provision that he didn't actually author in the first place. (NOT that I feel sorry for him!)
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