Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 8

steve , you are a dimwit , you accuse me of breeding for money , but you state that the main purpose of breeding from  titled parents , is that they sell better and not titled will not sell so good

you are right at one thing , Im not in love with the sport , Im in love with the breed that is about soooo muchmore than sport alone
I care about quality not titles , so if the dog I select for breeding is titled , thats OK , if he is not , fine by me too

only last month , 2 dogs from my breeding got IPO 3 , one got IPO 1 , 2 made  AD prufung , and seven got xrayed , all perfect hips , spine and elbows

not so bad from not titled  and partially titled parents

Ok I have been following the discussion (which is not meant to be an argument) and yes I have bred from untitled but health tested dogs. I am not against Sch or any other recognised titles, so why did I do it? because I didn't like what I was seeing in terms of a healthy,bidable social dog to train and compete in obedience.

The bitch I used has all the qualities that I was looking for and more importantly I had potential buyers interested so knew that pups would have homes. OK so she is not titled but she has competed at Crufts, has her good citizen gold and is a registered PAT. Following her second litter I did hear about Schutzhund and she passed her BH but thats as far as her Sch training will go, and without much access to a helper I am not sure if I will ever get a Sch title and admire the dedication of those who do, and I mean dedication which is another discussion on nature verus nurture.

Now I know folks here will be frantically typing to say that what I did was against some strongly held views, well this will really get you excited as due to demand I repeated the mating. The pups ( now adults) are doing well. 7 on the obedience circuit, 2 are in training for assistance dogs (blue coats), 2 are competing in CanniX the rest are in show/pet homes and I have 1 from each litter which I take to my local Sch club and my Ob club. I do not class myself as a breeder, so no website, and am happy to accept that my dogs are not everyone's cup of tea but they do work and are fit and healthy.

I await the onslaught

Shonnag

What is a good GSD I guess is the first question,


A good GSD is one that most closely follows the breed standards, a verstatile working dog is what the breed is supposed to be with a wide range of working paths from a pet to a defence dog. A good GSD is one that can be taken down any path so desired by the owner who chooses a GSD for its versatility in my opinion is a good GSD. In other words in choosing a GSD from the description of the breed standards of the working roles that can be achieved with the breed, a well bred GSD should be able to be trained in any of the these working roles is the type of dog breeders should be inspired to produce and if they can't achieve any working role destined for the breed, they are essentially faulty dogs.


It's got to the point in some Australian showlines, breeders actually advertise a litter with pride as not being suitable for guarding or protection roles, so in effect they are advertising the breeding of faulty GSD's. If they are not genetically capable, the wrong dogs are being bred?. The same applies to some working lines advertising unsuitability for pets as the dogs are too sharp with too much active aggression to be safe in a pet environment although the breed standards requires the GSD to be a companion animal and if they can't be that, they are faulty breedings and the wrong dogs are bred.


The Schutzhund test as system of quality control of the breed, weeds out faulty dogs and incorrect temperaments for the most part, it weeds out over sharpness and aggression in the BH test, it weeds out dogs lacking enough prey drive to be disobedient and provides a platform of common ground for the basic traits of the breed to be tested and evaluated upon is my belief of the titling system if it's done properly. People against mandatory titling or formal testing do so for their own agenda, not for the good of maintaining quality in the breed from what I can see.   
 

i totally agree with duke. i am a small breeder and have well bred dogs . only  two bitches have a title and one of my studs has a bh and cert police dog.  the others, as steve would say are ragh tag dogs even though they have great genetics (steve likes genetics). one is a mamboe ps daughter, one is a bitch from the policia kennel and one is a eurosport bitch. the mambo daughter has never had a bad hip or elbow and has 7 dogs working in canada as police dogs,2 for the mounties. also she has dogs in ohio,w.va. kentucky and also n.c. as police dogs. 3 in fla working as security for isreia guard securty co.
 the policia bitch has had a litter and 2 are in sch training,and the owners are estatic about them. the other is abeing trained as a ppd. one was sold for breeding purposes and the others are being trained by us for canada shipping in sept as green dogs for police work. steve, you think  this might be working dogs as max intended.
 rember these people that bought these dogs demanded  hip and elbow x-rays for them to evaluate before buying.
  steve you are not right to say a dog is not breed worthy because it does't have a title or kkl rating.
#1, whether a bitch or dog has a title or none,is not breed worthy unless she is bred and her offspring is proven in the work place as working dogs.
 a sch or any other title does not ammount to a hill of beans unless it is bred and the pups tested.
 also i think sch puts to much emphasis on prey and not enough on protection,hunting people,drugs etc. it is a routine or of the dog doing the same thing over and over for endless months to obtain a title.

Breeder is one who has 2 dogs.....male and female

Good breeder is one who has dogs and health certs

Very good breeder is one who has dogs, health certs and hips and elbows.


Breeder who only breeds titled "pink paper" standard is  a greedy over priced breeder.....(I read it here all the time)  Also will use their OWN blood lines in producing dogs, Wow who would have thought that, to create a type of dog that is consistent.

I bought a dog out of a titled dog, great dog, i know it would be great, but i have to breed it to another great dog whos grandpa was a great dog, I know how great he could be, so I made puppies because I know they could work......I ONLY charge 1500 for my dogs vs those greedy breeders who title their breeding stock and have a bloodline charge 2500.......Please tell me more.....does importing the breeding dog make the puppies with 1750?

Being small and only producing a couple litters a year, makes my stuff more valuable, one who produces more and has more titled dogs is a puppy mill.

Please continue....this is good stuff.    I am learning.

Sable59
I did not say that Sch was the only way i never have, What i have said is Dogs which do no work of any kind for generations.
Look the Guys who think the same as you do, You breed Pups from your NON titled Dogs and sell them to various sources, They perhaps train these Dogs, What do you do put the female to the male then reap in the money you contribute nothing to the welfare of the German Shepherd dog. If you do not work the dogs yourself you are just a breeder of G.S dogs and nothing more
And once again read my posts correctly or do not bother
If you lived over here there is no call for heaps of PPDs, WE do not need bloody protection dogs to keep us safe, i keep myself safe and my dogs as well i really think some of you Guys have a great deal of trouble in your country if you need PPDs in those numbers.
 If that is not the case then you are a paranoid lot of people
READ again i said if the ScH sport was to die over here WHERE would all the G.S dogs go there would be no other work for them there are to many dogs, and to then breed from them for the reasons you state there is no demand over here in that volume.
Of course many of you will not want to train your dogs in the Sport and i will tell you why
You would not like the amount of work that goes into it to train a Dog to ScH3 and korclasse it and that is the truth of the matter, I am all for you Guys selling your Dogs as narcotic dogs, PPD dogs, Herding Dogs etc, on one condition only
TRAIN the dogs yourselves to do these jobs then sell them on, But NO' you breed these dogs THEN sell them as prospective dogs for the work.  An easy COP out, you do no work at all but by god you do shout loud at what you do and that is putting the female to the Male at the right time
At least the Guys who work there DOGS in the ScH sport put in 100's maybe 1000s of hours training, Never bred dogs myself so am not sure how long it takes about an hour i would guess from start to finish, I guess you Guys who work there dogs this way must break out into a big Sweat with the effort you put in, then start counting the Dollars
I am sorry but you and people like you do nothing for the breed to better it.
As i said you train the Dogs yourself then sell them as TRAINED dogs, then i would have great admiration for you. but certainly not the way you and most others do it, Now we know the true facts as to why some of you do not like ScH Sport dogs it is the WORK you guys do not like in any shape or form.
This is my last on this subject and on future subjects in the same context, We now know who is who and how we all think, Workers and NON workers and i do not mean the Dogs i mean the Human element, Blunt i may be, the Truth it is however much you and others may bluster on to contradict it
Steve1

OP's question was "Breeding without titles". The rest boils down to personal opinions or personal experiences. We as humans and it really doesn't matter what part of the globe we reside on, can see where politics alter or interfere in many aspects of society, even in the dog world. 

For me, I have service dogs, (EDD),  or dogs in training. And even though I, personally  would love to have one or more titled there just isn't enough time in the day or days in the month for that to happen. Honestly, that is not an excuse it is a reality. They "work" for a job and at this point in my life that is more important than titles. Parents, Grandparents and Great Grandparents titled but these guys went right into work. I see legitimate reasons, not excuses for some not having titles. What most don't realize is that the European countries are like our states and so driving distances are different than here. If Belgium is "stricter" or "more correct" than in my eyes kudos, and maybe we can learn from that? But if things are the same there as they are here? Then we just have to live through it.......

Unfortunately, we will never all be on the same page when we have topics such as this one. But I believe as long as the dog can do the job that is put in front of him/her then that is what should matter. We see the "cutting corners" in anything and everything in life, promoted by money, greed, recognition and politics. America is the worst. But other countries have their share also.

Each person can do what suits them but for me, I find it, not sure what the right word would be? But for someone to spend ????.00 on a dog that was ????? Titled. One, the owner had money but didn't work the dog, didn't do anything with the dog. Then when they have the dog don't "use" or "work" the dog. And say if they then bred the dog? Don't even really know the dog, parents or family or the what the pups will be like?  

 

Steve1,

I typed as you were typing and most of that was my point exactly.

I don´t think anyone is advocating breeding untested dogs, but do you need to title a dog from good bloodlines to see if it´s a good dog if you have a background with workingdogs? If titles would say so much the showlines with their SCH-titles would be pretty good workingdogs I suppose. Most serious breeders are not intressted to use bad dogs, titled or not, if so they would have a hard time selling their dogs to workingdog people. What i mean is titles shouldn´t be the number one priority, it´s the quality of the dog that is more important, some dogs are also not having such great success as competitiondogs but have more to offer in breedings than many of the dogs that goes to the BSP or WUSV as an example.

SCH may be the only option in belgium, if I speak from sweden for example many dogs are competing in national sports, some do SCH and the other group are those dogs that are used in service. Several generations with no dogs in the family tested for work are not what I talk about, just that some dogs used haven´t been choosed because their great scores in dogsports, they have been used because they are good dogs plain and simple. However, I understand the concern if some are advocating breeding without titles or any kind of testing and lacks the experience of what a good dog should be and have no clue about the pros and cons of the lines they are breeding on, but that´s not what I´m talking about.

steve, blunt as i may be. you don't know your ass from a hole in trhe ground about what i do. and you did refer directky  to me.
 you also miss read as i post. first mistake, all my dogs are not untitled.
 it takes a couple of hours just to clean the kennels daily. it takes another hour asnd a halve to prepare the food and feed. we don't just feed anything, we have to prepare it. after feeding all feeders are put in a disinfectent, rinsed and ready for next feeding. this is just the adults.
 next is the puppys, it takes a good hour to prepare their food and feed.
 training starts as soon as they will take note of the rag and ball. usually around 5 or 6 weeks. they are trained then up until they are teething.
then ob and little ball play. this training is resumed after their permant teeth are set athen it all starts againn. added is hunting the decoy in the woods. box training and on and on.
 YOUR HOUR JUST DON'T FIT THE BILL!!!
 you say what if sch was discontinued?? i guess all the people breeding these dogs, and destroying our gsd as max wanted, would quit getting rich on you guys. then maby they woud start breeding real dogs fo a change.
 as far as volume goes, and yes steve your coumtry needs ppd and psd as well as any country.
 our country is the best country in the world. DON'T EVER TRY AND PUT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DOWN. THAT REALLY GETS ME GOING.