Thanks for the help... - Page 8

              HBFanatic...lol...I like your post and it is taken well,,,Yes, it is a lot of information. I have been reading the posts all day..However, I have managed to get out a few times today and put some of this good advice to work. I have to laugh at my own postings from time to time, as they do sound a bit ridiculous to me too. 

             SP.....Yes, information overload...."stick with them"...yep, I have to find the right one...

             KCzaja...I will call you 2mrw...Thanks...

"So Jim, in a case like this would you every use an E-collar??"

Reminder that this is a puppy - 9 months or so.

"Reminder that this is a puppy - 9 months or so."

Despite what the AR nuts claim, an e-collar isn't any more "abusive" per se than leash corrections.  

And he's not a puppy any more, he's an adolescent dog who could seriously hurt someone if his aggression is not checked.

Point taken, nevertheless IMO a 9mo adolescent GSD, even one with a punk attitude, may not need an e-collar.

In addition, the fact that the handler is not giving effective corrections with a leash and collar is (again IMO) not a recommendation to switch to an e-collar at this time. 

To the extent that anyone is physicalIy limited from giving effective leash corrections, an e-collar may be the only option. 

But at this point, she and Prince need to find a trainer competent to deal with aggression issues who will teach her to use whatever tool or tools are needed to squelch the aggression.  The tools themselves are the least important aspect; recognizing when and knowing how to use them is much more important.

 I know this is redundant, but I can't help chiming in and saying people who have not dealt with a dog who can TRULY be aggressive simply don't understand. 

I read all the posts, Deanna, and I can't help but think what you're describing could've easily been my male had he been handled differently. I admit I was unprepared for his temperament (and he's certainly not fear aggressive in any way, shape, or form) as a pup but I realized quickly that it was either I get tough, really really tough, or have to give him to someone who could physically handle him. He is huge and powerful, and he didn't like people from an early age. He minded his own business and was neutral, but if they got in his face he wasn't nice. This started very young; about 16 weeks was the first time he growled at people who petted him in a store. I was pretty surprised. 

The first thing is to keep him the hell out of situations where he will get himself in trouble. I have tried to wrap my head around why this dog was even in that situation you described and I simply can't think of one good reason. Those moron trainers who think your dog needs to accept food and pets from strangers out of your presence (you were technically not there) need to be PTS. These are the people who want the dogs to be PTS because their stupid methods don't work on any dog w/any character or strength in temperament. 

All the half-assed "corrections" can actually make the situation much MORE dangerous. In aggression situations, you need to make a correction count. Seriously count. No nagging tugs at the collar, no water bottles, etc. The correction NEEDS to shut the dog down immediately. There can be no question in his mind that he does not want that to happen again. Any less, and you run the risk of pissing him off and THAT is typically when they come up the leash, if they're that type. 

I think this dog has been mishandled and bombarded with well-meaning but detrimental "training" and you need to decide right now if you're keeping him, and if so, get serious. Keep him out of trouble while you work on his issues and find his true triggers. I would keep a prong on him w/a pull tab at all times if you take him out in public. BTW, if the prong isn't taut and right behind his ears, don't bother. Might as well get a Halti. I have yet to meet a dog that couldn't be "fixed" w/a prong. 

To the extent that anyone is physicalIy limited from giving effective leash corrections, an e-collar may be the only option.

From what's been written, I don't think the limitations are physical, but mental - wait, that doesn't sound right!  I mean it's not physical problems that prevent proper corrections, but not wanting to hurt the doggy and thinking that an inadequate correction is actually a too-hard correction.  Public "dog training classes" people often freak out if a dog yelps following a correction, which only reinforces the OP's feeling that they're too strong when they're in fact much too weak.

Absolutely agree with your second paragraph.

Jenni78, great post!  Ruger, srsly, paste this on your mirrors and on the refrigerator: 

All the half-assed "corrections" can actually make the situation much MORE dangerous. In aggression situations, you need to make a correction count. Seriously count. No nagging tugs at the collar, no water bottles, etc. The correction NEEDS to shut the dog down immediately. There can be no question in his mind that he does not want that to happen again.

Reason i mentioned an E-collar is my boy had a similar personality and he DID NOT LIKE KIDS.  It was not dealt with properly (the kids or otherwise) and created some issues later that I had to deal with every time I took him out.  I learned that the e-collar was my friend and I did not FREY him pursue but warned him with it mostly and it really seemed to get his shitty attitude in check.  Pronto.  He started taking me more seriously and I really never had to be harsh with it.  He only needed it for a short time and occassionally as a reminder if he was a butt.  However, I DID NOT LET PEOPLE PET HIM, PERIOD.  If he went to the vet, he had to wear a muzzle, and no one was allowed to fuss with him.  From that point on  he was fine.  However he was never a social boy and never learned to like the public.  That was who he was.  So there are some things I don't feel you can change;  but proper handling and training is essential for this dog and if I remember right he started this behavior at 4 months old.   I seem to remember Ruger1 posting a troubled thread about him growling early on.  Thats a real problem as he has obviously now developed it into trouble.  GET HELP NOW.  I wish you the most success with him, I hope you can get it to work all the way around.  Nanci

Jenni78... Your Quote..." and he didn't like people from an early age. He minded his own business and was neutral, but if they got in his face he wasn't nice. This started very young; about 16 weeks was the first time he growled at people who petted him in a store. I was pretty surprised. "  .........Jenni, Sounds just like Prince. Prince was very friendly and outgoing when he was a little guy, at about 4 months things changed....At class the other night, he was working very close around other dogs and people, was even standing right next to the trainers he lunged at...As long as people ignore him, everything is just fine. He does not like to be approached by anyone, especially while on leash. He does not like when people talk to him either...Lol..

 Jenni..Your Quote...."Those moron trainers who think your dog needs to accept food and pets from strangers out of your presence (you were technically not there) need to be PT'S. These are the people who want the dogs to be PT'S because their stupid methods don't work on any dog w/any character or strength in temperament". ........   The trainer's exact words were.." He has a screw loose, and if he was my dog he would be GONE"...When Prince broke his sit stay  (as she approached him) my attention immediately went to correcting Prince. As I walked toward Prince to enforce the sit stay, the trainer starts loudly insisting I give her some food to treat Prince. That seemed really dumb to me, as my first instinct was to gain control of Prince. The trainer seemed to think that Prince taking treats was the priority.. It was at that point that he lunged and growled at her.
    The prong collar seems to slide down his neck, but if I remove a link it seems too tight... I want to keep Prince, I would sooner part with my husband, childen, and  a couple of horses too....lol.......   Deanna...

"He does not like to be approached by anyone, especially while on leash. He does not like when people talk to him either..."

Oh, boy.  Doesn't like people coming near him or speaking to him? I'm so glad you are facing this and determined to deal with it.

As I understand it we're not talking about a dog bought to be a Schutzhund competition dog, but a dog bought to be a family pet, right?  Families, children, other pets, visitors, all the surprises and unexpected things of family life...

For anyone else in the same boat, as a GSD owner I beg of you to get this under control ASAP (I know you certainly want to, Ruger, and are working on it - hence this thread).   But people don't like GSD.  Go to SuperPetz or Petco or Petsmart and the Beware of Dog signs all have slavering German Shepherds on them, some now have black & white signs, b&w GSD heads with bright red drops of blood flying from their mouths! 

It's the responsibility of EVERY owner to make certain that they do not do anything detrimental to the breed or to the rest of us trying to have our own German Shepherd companions.

Every bad incident with a GSD makes people react poorly to the next one they see.  GSD have already shown up on breed ban lists, insurance company exclusions, and are forbidden in many dog parks.

A family pet who "does not like when people talk to him" is big trouble.  A GSD should be aloof - mine don't like strangers, either. It's like they're saying, "Excuse me, but I don't know you."  lol, it's one of the things I like about the breed. They don't care to be approached or petted by someone they don't know.  But if they are, they certainly tolerate it.  We do live in a community, you know, and they must be a part of that community and not "dangerous dogs."  They'll still protect me if it's needed.