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by Travel time on 11 September 2010 - 00:09
by Prager on 11 September 2010 - 01:09
Well, if you have the book, name the study. Enlighten us. I can not take the suspense. I would like to read it in its entirety and not just someone telling me that there is such study. If you name the study I can find it on internet. For me it is 40 miles round trip to the book store.
The book on the Internet is not complete but has typical inserts of each chapter.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Travel time on 11 September 2010 - 02:09
by HBFanatic on 11 September 2010 - 03:09
there is so much more to clicker training, operant conditioning and the whole ball game than just the little clicker. A consistent marker is a big part of it. But not all of it.
Good day! Or wait, good night that is!
by Steve Schuler on 11 September 2010 - 16:09
Given that you highly recommended Karen Pryor's book "Reaching the Animal Mind", and detecting Han's enthusiam for reading it, I went ahead and checked it out on Amazon. Lo and Behold!!!! I can buy a used hardback copy of the book for a mere $0.65 with $3.99 shipping and who could pass up a deal like that? Han's maybe, but not me!
So Han's my friend, hold on to your money and I'll send you my copy to read when I'm done.
Who knows, maybe this could lead to a collaborative enterprise of teaching dolphins to dance to Trombone Tunes?
SteveO
by Prager on 11 September 2010 - 16:09
Yeah I am mounting an expedition to my favorite book store. I can not wait for the book in mail. I can not take the suspense. And ramain "ignorant."!
Click! Click!
Prager Hans
by Steve Schuler on 11 September 2010 - 17:09
www.amazon.com/review/R7Q7TP5WR175Z/ref=cm_cr_pr_cmt
It is a review of another of Pryor's books called "Don't Shoot the Dog" by a guy named Lee Charles Kelly, a dog trainer.
As you will see, he is something less than a fan of Clicker Training. Everybody can investigate different theories and techniques and make up their own minds about how they want to train their dogs. I've gotta say Hans, when you said, "I train dogs in order to have PROPER RELATIONSHIP with such dog. Performance/results is secondary, but eventually inevitable." that really struck a chord in me. Anyhow, I'm just another Pilgrim out looking things over.
Peace
SteveO
by Diane Jessup on 11 September 2010 - 23:09
Hey, glad to hear you are "enlightened" about CSC, but please don't make it sound like working with Shade is like working with CSC. She may be a member, and go there, but she doesn't in any way, shape or form use the training techniques put forth by "training director". She is her own person, has her own methods, and is a truly kind person who would help you if you ever needed it. ANyway, glad things are working out for you.
Hans: I have used both clicker and voice, and I have to use my voice as I don't have enough hands to use clicker and do all the other stuff I need to be doing. I use the word "Yes" as my marker. It works for me, but MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is that the clicker does work MUCH better if you can use it. For all the reasons given in above posts.
People can make fun of new methods all they want, but MOST things in life do get better and better. Most things progress. Most things are built upon learning from what has come before. It is ridiculous to think that dog training is any different. It continues to grow, change and improve yearly, and there will always be those on the cutting egde and those screaming and kicking and hanging on to the "old ways". Many feel threatened by the new "improved" methods, and I don't know why.
Yes, marine mammals can be fed during performances, but you would be surprised at how long they do go between rewards. Also, try this with your e-collar: teach the dog to go into the middle of your yard (away from you) and do a back flip. Twice. And then circle the yard against the fence line as fast as possible two more times. All this before a reward. This will give you an idea of the difficultly level facing marine mammal trainers who are working with undomesticated animals who don't even care to please. They HAD to figure out BETTER ways to train, and they did. Dog people are lucky that we can take these methods and apply them to our domesticated and loving pets. Easypeasy.
by Doberdoodle on 12 September 2010 - 00:09
Well, I can speak for myself as a balanced trainer, in saying I am not trying to hang onto anything old but I want people to know clicker training or purely-positive training is not for everyone, and doesn't always work out well as a sole technique, esp. with problem behaviors that do need correction.
To answer your question more directly, the reason they feel threatened is because it insinuates their methods are wrong. I am not speaking for myself here. I will give you an ex-- There was a NYC family that went for 1 year producing no garbage and not using electricity, as an experiment to impact the environment less. Know what, they got a bunch of haters and rude comments. Why, you ask, could someone be resentful towards a family doing good things? Because it makes people feel bad about themselves. When they see someone doing noble things, they want to take them down a peg because it makes them realize their own weaknesses. People do this to me when I say I'm a vegetarian, "Oh, well I love tasty meat, haha screw you lettuce heads," but I'm not doing it to be better than them, I'm doing it because it's the right thing to me. The immediate reaction is not to say "Oh, cool," but to throw it in my face like I am a threat to them. Maybe the reaction with clicker training, too, instead of saying "Oh, interesting, I'm not sure it's for me, but tell me more," it is "That treat slingin' click-click garbage is stupid."
Every movement will have it's backlash. Maybe the purely-positive movement was a backlash to the harsh animal training/breaking techniques of the past. But maybe the pendelum has swung too far in the other direction? Maybe dogs should not have "suggestions", maybe they should have "commands"! Maybe we are "owners" and not "guardians." I am satisfied to have a training system that is balanced training, and my clients results and satisfaction speak for themselves, the dogs are happy too, and we're keeping dogs IN homes, balanced training is the best way in my opinion.
by animules on 12 September 2010 - 00:09
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