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by gsdsch3v on 22 February 2010 - 18:02
Sorry guys to muzzle your detector dog is impractical. How about we screen the dog intended for the job a little better. Truth is Malinois are an extremely reactive breed of dog and must be very carefully screened before being put in an application that brings them into contact with large numbers of people in a confined space.
My dog works just fine around large numbers of people because I made sure she was suitable for the job before putting her in it. I have had small children escape from their parents and come running up to her as well as drunken morons. That is just part of our mission, unlike slamdunc I work in a small agency and we just have a different mission. We have a small population but loan out to the neighboring county during round-up. It is like marti-gras for the west.
Bottom line: Screen your dogs so that you are picking the appropriate dog for the job, not all dogs can work in all venues!
My dog works just fine around large numbers of people because I made sure she was suitable for the job before putting her in it. I have had small children escape from their parents and come running up to her as well as drunken morons. That is just part of our mission, unlike slamdunc I work in a small agency and we just have a different mission. We have a small population but loan out to the neighboring county during round-up. It is like marti-gras for the west.
Bottom line: Screen your dogs so that you are picking the appropriate dog for the job, not all dogs can work in all venues!
by Prager on 22 February 2010 - 21:02
gsdsch3v
The dog was not doing detection. He was just standing there with his handler..Thus the muzzle at that time would be appropriate.
Please read the article before you make comments.
I am done here.
Prager Hans
The dog was not doing detection. He was just standing there with his handler..Thus the muzzle at that time would be appropriate.
Please read the article before you make comments.
I am done here.
Prager Hans
by 4pack on 22 February 2010 - 22:02
I have a question...The duel purpose dogs have a trained response to allert do they not? They do not smell explosives and attack. Isn't it typical to train a explosives detection dog in a passive allert, sit or down near the object, maybe a bark? Never are dogs taught to sniff out drugs or explosives and attack. Am I right?
IMO this dog wasn't doing his job, he screwed up and clearly isn't a good fit to be working in public crowds, maybe mob like crowds at soccer games or protests out of hand, but not neutral people from all walks of life.
Why would a wire muzzle not be practicle? Looks plenty open enough for the dog to smell whatever he needs to detect on. The point of having these dogs is to save $ and lives, to keep us safer not cause lawsuits and public disfavor.
IMO this dog wasn't doing his job, he screwed up and clearly isn't a good fit to be working in public crowds, maybe mob like crowds at soccer games or protests out of hand, but not neutral people from all walks of life.
Why would a wire muzzle not be practicle? Looks plenty open enough for the dog to smell whatever he needs to detect on. The point of having these dogs is to save $ and lives, to keep us safer not cause lawsuits and public disfavor.
by Slamdunc on 22 February 2010 - 22:02
I say we pass legislation that requires all pet owners who take their dogs out in public to have muzzles on them as well as all working K9's. This would guarantee that the thousands of dog bites and maulings that occur each year by peoples pets never happen as well.
There are still so much misinformation still being passed on here:
Customs is not lacking funding and these dogs are trained in Front Royal, VA. Many of these dogs go to work the border as dual trained Patrol and narcotics or Explosives detection dogs. Money is not an issue and not a reason why dogs are cross trained for Customs and Border patrol.
DDr-DSH, I disagree with you on the helicoptering of dogs, you are way off here. Maggs you still do not have a clue and never will. Just because you read something on the Internet does not make it accurate, correct or right.
Jon Luc, what a ridiculous story you posted. The dog was not off lead and no one died. Give me a break.
The bottom line is that a handler training a dog made a mistake and a child got bit. There is no excusing that, a very sad event for the child and it could have been worse. Out of tragedy comes change, and I'm sure some policies and procedures will be changed because of this.
Muzzles are not practical or necessary for patrol or detection dogs, IMHO. Better training and more obedience is what is needed. Most problems with dogs come down to a lack of obedience training and control, especially problems with aggression control. I do not blame the dog for this but the handler. I disagree with out seeing the dog that anyone can say it is has any temperament problems. We were not there and none of us saw what transpired, so we can't judge the dog so easily. We can judge the handler and agree that he should have had better control of his dog. The handler made a mistake and this must be rectified.
One last thing that needs to be addressed is that most K9 Handlers are very good dog handlers and police officers. I find it troubling for people who have never worked in LEO, never done anything with a dog to speak of, to so easily judge all K9 handlers. Because a couple of people screw up does not mean every handler is the same. I would love for some of you who even have sport dogs to come out and show me how great you and your dog are in a real setting. The amount of arm chair quarterbacking that goes on here is ridiculous. It's so easy to sit in front of your PC and judge others from the safety of your living room.
I'll get off the soap box now.
Jim
There are still so much misinformation still being passed on here:
Customs is not lacking funding and these dogs are trained in Front Royal, VA. Many of these dogs go to work the border as dual trained Patrol and narcotics or Explosives detection dogs. Money is not an issue and not a reason why dogs are cross trained for Customs and Border patrol.
DDr-DSH, I disagree with you on the helicoptering of dogs, you are way off here. Maggs you still do not have a clue and never will. Just because you read something on the Internet does not make it accurate, correct or right.
Jon Luc, what a ridiculous story you posted. The dog was not off lead and no one died. Give me a break.
The bottom line is that a handler training a dog made a mistake and a child got bit. There is no excusing that, a very sad event for the child and it could have been worse. Out of tragedy comes change, and I'm sure some policies and procedures will be changed because of this.
Muzzles are not practical or necessary for patrol or detection dogs, IMHO. Better training and more obedience is what is needed. Most problems with dogs come down to a lack of obedience training and control, especially problems with aggression control. I do not blame the dog for this but the handler. I disagree with out seeing the dog that anyone can say it is has any temperament problems. We were not there and none of us saw what transpired, so we can't judge the dog so easily. We can judge the handler and agree that he should have had better control of his dog. The handler made a mistake and this must be rectified.
One last thing that needs to be addressed is that most K9 Handlers are very good dog handlers and police officers. I find it troubling for people who have never worked in LEO, never done anything with a dog to speak of, to so easily judge all K9 handlers. Because a couple of people screw up does not mean every handler is the same. I would love for some of you who even have sport dogs to come out and show me how great you and your dog are in a real setting. The amount of arm chair quarterbacking that goes on here is ridiculous. It's so easy to sit in front of your PC and judge others from the safety of your living room.
I'll get off the soap box now.
Jim
by Prager on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
Dual purpose means that the dog can work as a detection dog (one purpose) and besides that he can work as a patrol dog (second purpose.)
In explosives detection he alerts usually passivly by siting and pointing towards the source of the smell.
As a patroll dogs he will bite a person(s) who is a source of a threat or danger if necessary automaticaly or when commanded,...that is besides many other tasks.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
In explosives detection he alerts usually passivly by siting and pointing towards the source of the smell.
As a patroll dogs he will bite a person(s) who is a source of a threat or danger if necessary automaticaly or when commanded,...that is besides many other tasks.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by 4pack on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
I'm all for for better training and screening of dogs. How about we start hiring the officers/handler better equiped for the job, rather than the one that has been with a dept longer or on a job list longest. I don't think handing someone who has not ever or has limited pet dog experience, is best suited for handling these types of dogs or situations. Who screens these dogs and what is their experience handling/training, animal behaviour?
I'm all for written tests and handling tests for handlers before they get hired for this stuff. Obviously this guy had his head up his ass and the dog wasn't ready for this job, hence a muzzle should have been in use until they passed some sort of environmental/performance testing as a team.
A reactive dog needs a hypervigilant handler, as Jim stated he is with his dog.
Having a bad day Jim?
I'm all for written tests and handling tests for handlers before they get hired for this stuff. Obviously this guy had his head up his ass and the dog wasn't ready for this job, hence a muzzle should have been in use until they passed some sort of environmental/performance testing as a team.
A reactive dog needs a hypervigilant handler, as Jim stated he is with his dog.
Having a bad day Jim?
by Slamdunc on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
4pack,
I have a question...The duel purpose dogs have a trained response to alert do they not? They do not smell explosives and attack. Isn't it typical to train a explosives detection dog in a passive alert, sit or down near the object, maybe a bark? Never are dogs taught to sniff out drugs or explosives and attack. Am I right?
Yes, the explosives dogs are all passively trained to alert to the presence of explosives. This alert is a behavior change, breathing change, body language change etc. Then the conditioned response is usually a sit or to focus on the source of odor. They usually do not bark as an alert. You do not want a explosive detection dog to touch, bite, scratch etc the explosives for obvious reasons. They are all passively trained.
Narcotics dogs can be either passive alert or aggressive alert it depends on the application. The passive alert is the same for the narcotics dog as it would be for an explosives trained dog. My dog is an aggressive alert narcotics dog, he will show the behavior changes work to the source of odor and then scratch and sometimes bite. He has torn the arm rest off a center console of a car and the door off a cabinet in a bathroom. He is a very aggressive alert dog and really wants to find dope. We have had lots of dope finds this week on traffic stops.
Now, either dog passive alert or aggressive alert can be a cross trained patrol dog and will still do their apprehension work, tracking, article searches, building searches, etc. as well.
I thought originally about training Boomer to be a passive alert narcotics dog and to teach him to screen people. The dog will basically go and sit next to the person with dope on them and stare at the location of the dope, front pocket for example. After careful consideration, I decided Boomer was not a candidate for this type of training. He is too intimidating and will bite readily. So although I'm sure he and I could do it I'm not taking any chances.
Jim
I have a question...The duel purpose dogs have a trained response to alert do they not? They do not smell explosives and attack. Isn't it typical to train a explosives detection dog in a passive alert, sit or down near the object, maybe a bark? Never are dogs taught to sniff out drugs or explosives and attack. Am I right?
Yes, the explosives dogs are all passively trained to alert to the presence of explosives. This alert is a behavior change, breathing change, body language change etc. Then the conditioned response is usually a sit or to focus on the source of odor. They usually do not bark as an alert. You do not want a explosive detection dog to touch, bite, scratch etc the explosives for obvious reasons. They are all passively trained.
Narcotics dogs can be either passive alert or aggressive alert it depends on the application. The passive alert is the same for the narcotics dog as it would be for an explosives trained dog. My dog is an aggressive alert narcotics dog, he will show the behavior changes work to the source of odor and then scratch and sometimes bite. He has torn the arm rest off a center console of a car and the door off a cabinet in a bathroom. He is a very aggressive alert dog and really wants to find dope. We have had lots of dope finds this week on traffic stops.
Now, either dog passive alert or aggressive alert can be a cross trained patrol dog and will still do their apprehension work, tracking, article searches, building searches, etc. as well.
I thought originally about training Boomer to be a passive alert narcotics dog and to teach him to screen people. The dog will basically go and sit next to the person with dope on them and stare at the location of the dope, front pocket for example. After careful consideration, I decided Boomer was not a candidate for this type of training. He is too intimidating and will bite readily. So although I'm sure he and I could do it I'm not taking any chances.
Jim
by MaggieMae on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
"DDr-DSH, I disagree with you on the helicoptering of dogs, you are way off here. Maggs you still do not have a clue and never will. Just because you read something on the Internet does not make it accurate, correct or right."
-------------
You just can't resist taking a "shot" at me in your posts, can you. I have told you before to STOP using My Name in your Posts ! I have an intense dislike for you because you are a Hypocrite. Quite frankly, you would probably be a "better fit" as the Entertainment at one of your wife's Pampered Chef Parties -- you could "wow" all the women with your Barney Fife police stories.
by Slamdunc on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
4pack,
Thanks, you made me smile.
I am fed up with the crap posted by some on the forum and some of it really irritates me. I'm just over the BS. You are very intuitive or am I that easy to read? Also, I think I have strep.
We have a selection process for our handlers that incorporates a physical fitness test, 1.5 mile run, sit ups, push ups, etc. Bite suit work, an oral board, and a written application process. In addition, the evals for the past three years are reviewed as well as any IA complaints. Letters of recommendation are required from former and current supervisors. We select handlers based on good decision making skills and sound judgment, an excellent work ethic and an experienced officer. There are several things that will disqualify an applicant pretty quickly. Then the K9 unit meets and discusses all the applicants and ranks them. These rankings get passed up the chain where the decision is made. It is an involved detailed process.
Jim
Thanks, you made me smile.
I am fed up with the crap posted by some on the forum and some of it really irritates me. I'm just over the BS. You are very intuitive or am I that easy to read? Also, I think I have strep.
We have a selection process for our handlers that incorporates a physical fitness test, 1.5 mile run, sit ups, push ups, etc. Bite suit work, an oral board, and a written application process. In addition, the evals for the past three years are reviewed as well as any IA complaints. Letters of recommendation are required from former and current supervisors. We select handlers based on good decision making skills and sound judgment, an excellent work ethic and an experienced officer. There are several things that will disqualify an applicant pretty quickly. Then the K9 unit meets and discusses all the applicants and ranks them. These rankings get passed up the chain where the decision is made. It is an involved detailed process.
Jim
by Slamdunc on 22 February 2010 - 23:02
Maggie,
When you stop saying ridiculous things I will ignore you again. Please, dig into you PDB archive that you have on so many of us and show me where I am being a hypocrite. I think I have been pretty consistent and not hypocritical at all. If you can show me I'll be happy to apologize to you.
Jim
When you stop saying ridiculous things I will ignore you again. Please, dig into you PDB archive that you have on so many of us and show me where I am being a hypocrite. I think I have been pretty consistent and not hypocritical at all. If you can show me I'll be happy to apologize to you.
Jim
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