2009 USA Nationals - Page 8

Still wondering what dog your refering to?  If your accusing someone of using "obvious pressure/pain/ABUSE in training" and "obvious abuse" ?  Drive and control in obedience and drives and control in protection are like comparing apples and oranges - perhaps what you might have interpreted in C phase was not a dog "falling apart" - just a dog with alotta drive for protection and maybe just a little trial smart that actually needed more training and might not have had the benefit of having a helper to train that particular phase?

There are only 3 OB V rated dogs?  Daniel Cox, Mike Diehl and Chico Stanford.  Let's not dance around - the only dog that I recall that had problems in the C Phase yet V rated in obedience  was Chico Stanford.  Are you referring to him?  If you are speak up - or shut up?  Have you ever been there when he was training Hustler?  It's easy to hide behind a computer and infer things.

 I believe you have a personal agenda Molly - were you not named in a court case with Chico Stanford over a dog that is his that you have in your possession and refuse to return?

I wasn't there, nor know the dog or handler being referenced – however I have seen numerous trials where the 'correct' dog (even when showing signs of obvious pressure and/or force training) received the higher score. Often these 'correct' performances are *very* recognizable to even the average person, but certainly to other handlers and the judges. Things such as (list not inclusive): looking away from handler on return from a motion exercise, licking lips on motion exercises, ducking head on motion exercises ,tail between legs or even in a low carriage, laying perfectly still/rigid on long down w/ head between front paws, disparity on the pace out on a retrieve vs. return, loping out carefully on send away. I could go on for other phases. If you know what you're looking at, you can recognize pressure easily. Molly has been in this sport and trialed at the national level and higher long enough to know what she's looking at. I think her point is that a spirited dog, showing joy in the work, with a couple of missteps will receive a nice critique and a bunch of single point deductions for inaccuracy, usually resulting in a SG score with glowing praise for the dogs attitude. Just as often dogs with crap attitudes and/or obvious signs of force training, will receive critiques such as "could have been faster" or "could show more enthusiasm" yet they get full points for each exercise, resulting in V scores. Both should be scored the same. ONLY the dog with both spirit AND precision should be awarded the V score. The way the judge awards points either reinforces (trains the trainer) or shows that changes need to be made. A couple of examples… Common conventional wisdom was that the only forced retrieves were reliable and therefore was the only way to get to the top. BS. I train with several former and current National level handlers, none use a forced retrieve any longer. Other, 'old school' trainers (who fall into the you can't teach an old handler new tricks category) will continue to use the forced retrieve until they retire or are forced to change. How can they be forced? Very, very easily in fact. Simply by not awarding full points for a dog who shows pressure on the retrieve. Another good analogy is the A frame. Schutzhund dogs are always sustaining shoulder injuries because it is not taught correctly because it is easier to not teach it correctly. AKC solves that issue by deducting points if the dog does not pass a certain part on the way down. Painting a simple line on the schutzhund A frame would go A LONG WAY, overnight, towards reducing injury in the dogs. Why? Because higher level competitors are not going to give away a single point. They WILL learn a new trick if there is a point deduction to be avoided. The average joe immediately follows as if Mr./Ms. National-Level are now doing it this/that or the other way, then I should too... The point being is that people often do not adapt until forced to do so. The ‘force’ comes in the form of points at a trial.

I've trained with Molly for years. Neither of us are cookies and treats types, nor afraid of making the dog responsible for its part of the performance and if it loses focus, neither of us shy away from providing it a consequence for that. However, fair and reasonable punishment is one thing, dogs showing sign of persistent pressure indicating that is how it was trained is another. Without getting into the AR aspect of it and people coming after our dogs, sport and training tools (like prongs and electric), the point is that correct without attitude is not more a V performance than great attitude with sloppiness. Both should scored the same, therefore setting the bar for all.

-Calvin
 

I think Molly may have a point....really, shouldn't a dog with the right temperament show enthusiasm in all three phases??  If they don't,  why is that?? It's either got to be a training issue or temperament... and why would a judge reward being flat with a  V score??

Judy, in response to your question to Denise...well, maybe some of the Seiger Show dogs did get "gifts" in protection, but tell me, where were they at this event....???

Calvin - regarding the compulsion....excellent points. Handlers that have this picture with their dog need to switch over to AKC, sad to say......




 

Whatever problems some Guys may have with Scores or Handlers or judges
 i say Congrats to Mike Diehl on winning the Nationals He did a good Job in Germany in the WUSV finishing in a very creditable 16th place now winning the National  I should think he is rightfully proud of his Dogs performance
Steve1