The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 73

And there lies the problem... PEOPLE.... sooner or later with people are involved genetics always gets SCREWED UP!. One person interpretation is not what the other person views it.

Well if it wasn't for people their would be no gsd or any other man made breed. If it weren't for people their would be no need for the gsd, they'd all be wolves. People are not the problem, but money and greed and self promotion and vanity is the problem.

If everybody followed the SAME, ORIGINAL Standard you might have

a chance of being right -  British KC,  AKC, even the Germans through

the current FCI version, have all played about with it down the years ...

and peoples' capacity to read the same words and interpret them three

different ways then comes into it, vested (sales) interests come into it,

people wanting to re-write the breed's history in order to back up  their

taking pot-shots at SV officials and/or rivals and other breeders comes

into it.  Anyone suggest a solution or cure for all those disagreements ?  

Burn the standard.

jamie: prager, what the point is?  The point is that the future of any breed lies on proper selection, not primarily on facts that this or that dog is son, grandson, or great grandson of some famous dog, recognized by some famous organizations.  And a little knowledge of genetics may help.

 exactly so where do we disagree? 

Ibrahim I am responding to you post on page 81. You are missing my point completely. 1+1=2 is not so in genetics. It is about what gene is relatively more dominant over other genes. Thus A+1= A again. Thus if you breed A to lesser 1 you will get A again and again and again. This is easy to do  since dominant gene will express itself in phenotype thus you can see it, but it does not matter even if you do not see it and such gene  is in genotype and if it is at some point  overridden by even more dominant gene then we can recall that gene by line breeding . Thus A+1 =A,... Dominant gene A will over ride  the rest. And  it is not about " 100 male sons and we selected best two " it  is about from 100 male sons 98 are as the father and mother who is founded by the same dominant dog .Like Hettel v Uckermark in line 2 or Rolf in line 5 Klodo v Boxberg in 3 and utz vom Haus Schutting for 4th  and that keeps going on and on. And if the popularity of the trait is in demand than  that will create a male line. If they are not popular they die out.  Myriad  of these lines died out. only 5 or 6 of them stayed in hundred + of years.  Mixing of lines leads to dilutions of the traits demarcating these lines  indeed and that is leading to mut GSDs by people who do not understand this. But since the genes of the   5 basic lines are so strong/dominant then  if you breed sire and dam from the same male line you are doubling on this already strong trait   and if you do it again you are quadrupling on this trait and so on. Thus you can recreate the characteristics of these lines. 

Blitzen: Ibrahim, don't forget that the dams will also need to express the same characteristics as the sires since they also contribute 1/2 of the genes. One would need to find females with the same phenotype and genotype. I doubt that would be possible without cloning.

Exactly and it is not impossible. That is what you do when you breed in line. Do not forget that female also has male line. Thus if you breed let say in 2nd line that means that both male and female are in 2nd male line. Thus you are doubling on the extremely dominant genes of the founder of the line and all the dogs after him.  People here are arguing a system they do not understand well. Go ahead and try it. It works. You have nothing to lose.  Why would I tell you otherwise and why would many breeders benefit from this if it would not work. You can say all day long grass is not green and sky is not blue but in the end the sky is blue and grass is green - so to speak. 

 Prager Hans

Susie:

That´s within 10 generations 1024 dogs, within 15 generations 32768 dogs out of partially totally different bloodlines, bred by more than 1000 breeders with partially totally different goals. Looking further back into his so called "Ingo von Rudingen" line, it´s a multiple thereof... so let´s drop the subject.

 In case Hans would say, he tries to breed the best working dogs there are in his opinion, Id be with him in an instant -
but to refer to self established "lines", without ever having had any influence on any decisions, made decades ago by hundereds of other, partially totally different thinking breeders, is more than presumptuous.

 

Yeah drop the subject since you do not understand it.  1+1=2 gentics in action.  

Susie: 

Only for clarification - Hans, I don´t want to start any pissing contest about the quality of your dogs, I even don´t know them, and there is a real chance, I´d like them.
I only don´t like the theory of the "5 lines" .
This is about theories only, not about the result.

 

 Hans: OK fair enough. Now have you ever heard of z Pohranicni straze  and JINOPO and of course me AlpineK9 dogs. Jiri was in carge of zPs dogs for 10 years, They  were created by Jiri Novotny.  They are quite famous now. Many people here who make inane or uneducated remarks i do not even care to respond to have these dogs in their pedigrees and directly benefit from these dogs who were generated by breeding using  male lines. 

Jiri breeds and maintain strictly these 5- 6 lines. why?Because he is an idiot and does not know what he is doing? I do not think so . this is not a "theory on 5 lines" this is a hart core practice proven by hundreds if not thousands of breeding.I really do not care why i am wasting my breath to describe something which scores of breeders know and do for 100 of years. And why i take idiotic insults here while trying to answer Ibrahim questions. now in your case Susi I think that you are not seeing it for what it is, but you are looking at it for what you think it is.  You are honestly trying to understand and for people like you I am still going on. 

 Consider what I am saying. As a matter of time it took me a long time to grasp this concept too and that is why I know how you feel. jiri was my mentor and I fully subscribe to the system. 

I say one more thing. Do not look at it as breeding to a dog from many generations ago. look at it as breeding to a dog who is what he is because dominant genes which carried through all those generations. if you breed those dogs - sire and dam - on those  genes then they will express itself in the progeny. Especially if you keep douing it more often then not. Outcrossig from a line is OK but coming back to it is good practice which will give you predictability of what you produce. 

Take it or leave it. But  it works if you let it. 

 Prager Hans

Line breeding has been done in every breed since breeds were created, it takes males and females. But logic is that when thousands of dogs preceed the dogs in front of you, the only way to recreate ancestral dogs would be to clone. No need to reinvent the wheel, this breeding practice is how all breeds of dogs are maintained.
So this is about the ten gazillianth time you told everybody that the guy you put in business 'created' the PS dogs and that others benefit from them. People who have anything with the PS kennel name in the pedigree most likely paid for their dog, and the people who owned the parent dogs paid for them, and on and on. So it would seem that with all those PS dogs in so many pedigrees, that you also benefitted from the business you created. Seems you couldn't have put your partner in business if it was not for customers buying the product ( best not to disparage your bread and butter:-) . And seeing as he 'tested' his studs on (your words) thousands of females, that's a lot of pups. Of course the PS kennel name is in a lot of ped today, there were lots of them produced.