The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 71

Fear i don't think so respect i do think so  and yes he does switch off after the bite .when the dog comes off the bite and you take him away he should switch off because the problem is dealt with .Thats the problem people think a protection dog should be jumping around on fire all through his work but  he should not he should be calm with a clear mind .dogs that don't switch off that why it is so hard to get him off his pray people dragging their dog around not for me. First Command always .if a protection dog does not listen and be in a state of mind when is is told out. To drop his drive and go back to normal he a danger to you and any one around him. this dog was about 7 months in this video balls only drooped solid fast,full grip he is fully committed .to many lunatic dogs out there that have no respect for their master cant turn off drive don't listen pull the arms off you  i will have a dog that submits to me any day

For Bebo ( sorry, but it´s easier for me to write in German language )

Nachdem ich mich durch die "Fachbegriffe" durchgewühlt habe, nun der Versuch einer Antwort:

a) Sprechen wir von "einfacher" Genetik, sollte "einfache" Statistik genügen, um ein zufriedenstellendes Resultat zu erhalten ( zufriedenstellend=wahrscheinlich).

b) Von "selektiver Genetik" ( in Bezug auf Hundezucht ) kann man nur dann sprechen, wenn in unserem Fall dutzende/hunderte von Züchtern innerhalb eines Stammbaumes konsequent und kontinuierlich dasselbe Ziel verfolgt haben, und zwar nicht nur in Bezug auf phaenotypisch sichtbare und somit leicht erkennbare Charakteristika, sondern auch auf nicht objektiv messbare Charakteristika wie Temperament, Leistungsbereitschaft, Härte...und hier divergieren selbst "Leistungszüchter" erheblich, wie wohl jeder Hundesportler weiss.

c) Epistasis in der Praxis - aus Erfahrung weiss ich, dass Züchter selektieren (und manche mit Erfolg), dies setzt jedoch die gleichen Maßstäbe über Generationen voraus, und da hört es in der Hobbyzucht auf. Legehennen, Milchkühe - kein Problem ( wobei hier die Selektion wesentlich einfacher, da direkt messbar ist ).

d) Basisvarianz ist ein nettes Wort, natürlich ist sie "da", und die Wahrscheinlichkeit der Abweichung vom "Ausgangsfaktor" ( bei Hans die "Stammväter" seiner 5 sogenannten Linien ) wird mit jeder Generation proportional größer.

Kurz und gut, was ich seit Tagen versuche zu sagen, ist, dass Hans verkehrt herum denkt.
Er will die Leute glauben machen, dass er züchterisch in der Lage ist, Charakterista basierend auf Rüden ( Hündinnen sind bei ihm zweitrangig, obwohl auch diese Hündinnen aus Rüden stammen...) 10 bis 20 Generationen entfernt zu ERHALTEN.
Ich mache mir jetzt nicht die Mühe, den Stammbaum von seinem selbst herausgesuchten Beispiel "Balli Panta Rei" ( Linie Rolf Osnabrücker Land ) komplett aufzuschlüsseln, aber vereinfacht gesagt, stammt dieser Rüde aus einem fröhlichen Mix von West-Leistung, DDR-Leistung, Tschechischer Leistung, West-Hochzucht, Ost-Hochzucht...
Das sind bei 10 Generationen 1024 Hunde, bei 15 Generationen 32768 Hunde aus zum Teil völlig verschiedenen Blutlinien, gezüchtet von mehreren 1000 Züchtern mit zum Teil völlig unterschiedlichen Zielen. Geht man weiter zurück auf seine sogenannte "Ingo von Rudingen" Linie, multipliziert sich das Ganze um ein Vielfaches.....also lassen wir das.

Würde Hans sagen, er versucht, die besten Leistungshunde zu züchten, die es seiner Meinung nach gibt, wäre ich sofort bei ihm -
aber sich zu beziehen auf selbstkreierte  "Linien", ohne irgendeinen Einfluss gehabt zu haben auf irgendwelche Entscheidungen, die Jahrzehnte vorher von hunderten anderer, zum Teil völlig anders ausgerichteter Züchter gefällt wurden, und dann 5 Rüden darzustellen als "Gründer" diverser Linien, ist mehr als vermessen.
Selektive Auslese durch EINEN Züchter, mit dem "Material", das er vor Ort zur Verfügung hat, macht Sinn. Das wäre ehrlich, aufrichtig, und nachvollziehbar. Die Geschichte von 5 "Linien" hält der Realität nicht Stand und dient lediglich dem vermeintlichen Mythos.

Wieviel "Rolf" oder gar "Ingo" ist noch in einem Welpen ( Resultat aus zig tausend Hunden, gezüchtet von zig tausend verschiedenen Züchtern) ?
Warum nicht einfach sagen: Ich versuche durch selektive Auswahl gute Hunde zu züchten? Das wäre ehrlich und für jeden nachvollziehbar.

 

But Susie, there are others on this board for whom English is not their preferred language. What if everyone starts communicating in their main language?
Isn't heir a board on which you can speak in German or whatever ?

Sorry, Joanro, but Bebo wrote in German, and I wasn´t able to answer appropriatly in English. It´s too difficult.
I´ll try to translate, but the translation may be faulty - forgive me this one time!

After reading througout all the technical terms, now the attempt of an answer:

a) Talking about "simple" genetics, "simple" statistics should be good enough to get a satisfactory result ( satisfactory = presumably ).

b) You can only talk about "selective genetics" ( relating to breeding dogs ), if in our case douzends/hundreds of breeders involved in one pedigree consequently and continously within one single pedigree persued the same goal, not only concerning phaenotypical visible and thus easy acknowledgeable traits, but also not realitically measurably characteristics like temperament, willingness to work, hardness... and at this point even "workingline breeders" diverge tremendously, as every dog sportsman knows.

Epistasis in life praxis - out of experience I know, that breeders do select ( and some of them successfully ), but for doing this you need to use the same standard for generations - and at that point the hobby breed ends. Laying hen, milk cows - no problem ( although selection way easier, because measurable directly ).

d) Basic variance is a nice word, of course it´s "there", and the likelihood of deviation from the "beginning factor" ( with Hans the "progenitors" of his 5 so called lines ) becomes proportionally bigger with every generation

In short, what I try to say for days now, is, that Hans is thinking back to front.
He wants people to believe, that he as a breeder is able to retain characteristics based on males ( females for him are second choice, although even they result out of males ) 10 to 20 generations back.

I don´t take trouble now to breakdown completely the pedigree of his self selected example "Balli Panta Rei" ( Rolf Osnabrücker Land line ), but simplified said, this male results out of a mix of Western-workingline, DDR-workingline, Czech workinline, Western-showline, Eastern-showline...

That´s within 10 generations 1024 dogs, within 15 generations 32768 dogs out of partially totally different bloodlines, bred by more than 1000 breeders with partially totally different goals. Looking further back into his so called "Ingo von Rudingen" line, it´s a multiple thereof... so let´s drop the subject.

In case Hans would say, he tries to breed the best working dogs there are in his opinion, Id be with him in an instant -
but to refer to self established "lines", without ever having had any influence on any decisions, made decades ago by hundereds of other, partially totally different thinking breeders, is more than presumptuous.
Selective screening through ONE breeder, with the "stuff" he has access to, makes sense. This would be sincere, honest, and replicable. The story of 5 "lines" doesn´t brave reality and only serves the alleged myth.

I hope you are able to understand my pigeon -english / google translate is my best friend...

nice dog yogi, nice grips. why did you speed the vid speed up, would be good to hear barking as well.

 

i do not like all that teasing movement from the decoy, it is not pressure it is prey stimulation. the dog has a good expression when it is not near you, it's expression drops to "what have i done wrong now boss" when near you, is it handler soft ot have you given it a huge whoopping?

 

nice prey dog having a game of tug  and from it's expression change is relived to not be near you.

even allowing for age i think my dog is vastly more serious, intense and aggressive, i will keep mine.

 

thats your opinion but i will say that dog has never been hit horible statment

He is not perfect, he is a limited edition

That´s within 10 generations 1024 dogs, within 15 generations 32768 dogs out of partially totally different bloodlines, bred by more than 1000 breeders with partially totally different goals. Looking further back into his so called "Ingo von Rudingen" line, it´s a multiple thereof..

I've tried to be heard with this point for a decade, now. Some people just believe what their leader tells them. Your post was very easy to understand, Susie. And I appreciate being allowed to read your opinion. Thank you for your troubles. Your voice is too good to overlook. :-)

Joan you saying you can't look at a ped of a dog you have never seen and know exaclty what it will be like because of what line it comes from, and you can't tell if it is type 1 or type 2 dog by looking at ped.

 

you don't know much.

 

i want somebody PLEASE to tell me (hans won't) how many outcrosses does it take to make the 5 line theory redundnat, 1, 2, 50???

 

are there actually any pure lines left, please post one.

 

lastly how is it extinct lines can come back thru one dog eg javir

Joanro, may I write a post in Arabic, then translate it into English, on one condition, I receive same appreciation you gave to Susie ?