Can someone explain me what this master trainer and master decoy are doing ?? - Page 7

Anonymity is basically for cowards. I am not saying all using avatars are cowards since these days it is customary to do so and people just do not think about it. Just like Duke said. But duke is not anonymous. Neither am I and Gigante and others. .... even though we use avatars.

Someone said this about this post and my videos somewhere else ( my forum) I asked for permission to post this here since I think it may explain some things rather nicely and I would like to say the same but could not come near to what this person said.
This man and my other friends said that it will make no difference . It probably will not.
 

"What Hans presents in the videos which he decides to share is HONESTY! There is no editing and none of the typical egotistical BS. This is about pulling back the curtain and letting people actually see a process. No dog is perfect and no trainer is perfect and when you see a dog working impressively what you did not see is all the imperfection and mistakes that came prior to that stellar performance.

Also, the type of training Hans is allowing us to witness is fundamentally different than the type of training Chip advocates. You can not compare that to this. So when Chip says Hans is not teaching a dog any fundamentals I say that would be correct if you are looking at it from the same viewpoint Chip is. Looking at it from Hans' side then you would clearly see that he is definitely teaching fundamentals. It is up to YOU the reader to digest this information and decide for YOURSELVES if you would like to try one style or the other. Some will not like Hans' style and that is fine IMO and some may not prefer Chip's style.

What we all can do without is someone demonizing one way or the other and using it as a platform for personal attacks and snide remarks. Yes yes I am guilty too. Ultimately it is not my intention to attack Chip's style (which is the most accepted method by far) but I say from my own experiences that IMO that style is for sport and should stay in that arena. Perhaps I can be disagreed with without the personal attacks because I will admit that I will attack back. If one person says the other is wrong and vice versa that is pretty much the end of productive conversation because of the limitations of the forum. It would behoove everyone to keep that in mind. Of course I think one way is wrong and the other right for certain circumstances. We can discuss the merits and pitfalls of each but it is just a forum and we can only take it so far before it WILL devolve into personal attacks. I don't really have a problem with that myself but I would like to point out that when it gets to that point then it is not productive and proceeds from that point on to be a gigantic WASTE OF TIME.....!!!!! I apologize for the rant....screw that not really. :)"

I didn´t want to post on this topic any longer, but honestly, I like anonymity on the internet, too.

Truth is truth, no matter who tells it, an opinion is an opinion, no matter who posts it...but
there is a difference between "normal" members of this forum and "professionals", who make their living out of dogs.

The vast majority of dog owners don´t make a living out of their dogs, but they may have a lot of experience ( be it in raising, training, titling, health questions, whatever ). That´s a lot of knowledge, why waste it, only because there is no "video proof" ?
At least in my country "training dogs" is nothing special, that said, as long as we don´t want to sell something ( be it trained dogs, puppies, training lessons, or any stud ) we don´t tend to "video proof" our daily routine...no big deal, not worth the effort...

When I was told to "shut down", because I don´t have any fancy videos, I tried to remember the names of the dogs I titled during all the years - I had problems to remember the names, but the poster who told me to "shut down" hasn´t titled one single dog - his advantage: he made fancy videos of his dogs... ?!?

"Professionals" are different, because they need to sell something, be it dogs, or any kind of training - that said, as soon as they post any videos or "theories" they must live with a reaction, be it positive or negative, they are salesmen.

Now the latest videos and theories got a lot of negative responses, not from "trolls", but from people all over the world, not connected, no "club" or "training" partners, no "agenda"...

They ( including me ) tried to point out the failures - the only response: "sportism", "illogical", "no proof" - there was no discussion possible, but again a lot of "theories" and ridiculing/questioning several posters.

In these videos and statements for me and for a lot of others theory and praxis don´t fit together, and it´s visible for everybody with some basic knowledge about dog training in these videos.

Every dog in every "sport" ( I call this kind of "civil" bitework sport, too, although it´s not rated, because these dogs are trained from pet people just for fun, not for a real job ) needs to be developed according to its drives, needs a good foundation ( action/reaction, grip/target ), needs to feel comfortable during basic training ( success, not stress ), needs to be able to learn and develop step by step ( increasing pressure according to the personal development of the dog ), and needs a handler willing to support the dog. None of this is visible within these vids, but a "professional" = someone making a living out of selling imported trained dogs, making a living out of selling "training hours", must be able to show self trained, successful "results" of his training, otherwise everybody is free to question this kind of training.

It doesn´t matter, if my personal goal is a "sport" dog, a "police" dog, or a "civil" dog, the BASICS of successful dog training always are the same.

"Kick and rush" was buried in the late seventies, early eighties, and it was buried because trainers became aware of more successful, more "animal friendly" ways to train dogs.

No, I still don´t have any videos "for proof"...
 

@ Susie 👍👍👍👏👏👏😆

Susie, no one asked for a video proof from anyone, at least not from you.

What noitsyou requested for (and I support him/her on that, not the "Dear friends, brothers & countrymen" speeches) that Prager Hans provides some NAMES of some successful dogs he himself trained FROM BEGINNING TO PERFECTION.

Obviously, that long list isn't forthcoming. 😢😢

Swarn, it´s not about ONE topic, it´s about a whole bunch of them... you are late.

@BW

If its the most conductive and protective to learning where is it used. Which collage which high school or elementary. Anywhere in learning who use's it? None. When you go to a seminar you don't introduce yourself as Bavarian Wagon, Im sure you use your real name. Why?

The next seminar introduce yourself as Bavarian Wagon, you will most likely eat your lunch alone.

I don’t see it as cowardly at all, if you took the time to ask or research, or spent any time outside of your place of business, you’d more than likely know a lot of the people that you believe are anonymous on this forum.

I think anonymity provides people with a way to share ideas and see the response to those ideas, without the bias that comes when others know who the poster making the statement is. For instance, the “sportism” thread, if anyone else but you and a few of the known like minded people on this forum made that post, you would’ve seen a much different response to that thread. Same with this thread…I guarantee you that if we took you out of that video, the comments would be different. Maybe some people would’ve pointed out what has already been pointed out, but I could almost guarantee you that the “tone” of the posts would’ve been more educational rather than judgmental. A good example (and not saying anything negative about the video) is the thread and video vk4 posted earlier this week, the general tone from the majority of people is much different than what we see in this thread. There were of course some very negative comments on that thread as well…but you could almost expect to get those from the people that made them if you have been following this forum for the past few months. T

Eventually, once people learn the thoughts and opinions of others, they stop seeing posts on threads for what they are and are just responding to the person making that post. It almost doesn’t matter what the person says, they’ll say anything to prove them wrong…even at times when they might have a good point. This negatively affects discussion, debate, and the sharing of information.

 

Gigante...real life and internet is very different. A school/seminar is also not a place where ideas/information is shared equally and freely. Those are places where information flows downhill...from teacher to student. An internet forum is not a place that has set teachers and set students, we all fill both of those roles at any given time in the discussion. I would love to see anonymity as it is possible on the internet to be possible in real life. You'd see a lot more learning occur and a lot less intimidation and lack of quesitons being asked. If we were able to be anonymous, and not worry about the negative reprucusions of asking a "dumb" question or making a "dumb" statement...learning and training would happen at a much faster pace. As it sits...most apprentice trainers/helpers are too scared to ask their mentors a question for fear or reprocusion or removal from the program that it negatively affects progress.

BW: Gigante...real life and internet is very different.

Was this post from the fake you or the real you? Whom should I trust which side of you is speaking on which post? Are you always posting as BW and not as ? How can honest conversation move along if one side is faking? These are rhetorical, you need not answer.

Im hoping the real you does not agree with your entire last paragraph.

 

@Swarnendu Who said I don't like criticism? That's your opinion which you are stating as though it's a fact. What do you base that opinion on? Did I get angry that you criticized me or question your right to do so? No, I simply responded in a reasonable manner and pointed out that your comparison of me to Goebbels was flawed. You can say whatever you want about me and I won't ever have a problem with you saying it but I will respond to what is said.

Now for the new people here is what Gigante posted:
"Trained under Jeff I see. One of his best skills is patience, setup then wait. Your pushing, which shortens your troll ability in any given forum. You were gaining traction with some and could have had followers & still may. My suggestion for you is to allow your setup to simmer longer your points without any reflection will seem more valid and you will have actual ammunition to work with rather then powder and no bullet.

Additionally all this note keeping nonsense stop that people dont want to search for a tablet and pen. If you make it hard for your followers with these types of requests you will only be hurting yourself.

Hope this helps and good luck on the next run. You may now practise without opposition from me."

What did I say? Even though I said he was going to attack me and not address any points I brought up he still did it. I told you, he can't help himself. Remember what I posted earlier? It isn't what they are saying but what they aren't saying. What they aren't saying is that I'm wrong.

As far as my anonymity goes, I'll ask a question: has Prager/Hans NEVER threatened anyone via a post, PM, email or other means? I already know the answer to that question but I'll let someone else answer it.